shah269 0 #1 May 31, 2011 Odd downsizing question. This is a double variable downsizing question and I can't seem to find much in the Brian Germain downsizing charts. I'm 175lbs, I own a Talon I container and a 210 Triathlon. I'm currently jumping student gear working towards downsizing to be 1:1. My last 9 jumps were on a 260 Navigator in a Telesis container. I would venture to say she is a few years old. Of the 9 past jumps half of them have been standup landings. My progression usually would have been to a 240, another 9 jumps and then on to my own equipment. Only catch. The drop zone currently does not have a 240. They do have a 220. I've spoken with my mentor and various people on the drop zone and they have indicated that they don't see a major issue with me going from a 260 9 cell half ZP canopy to a 7 cell full ZP canopy. I tend to error on the side of caution. Thus without getting into a major pissing match regarding 9 cells vs 7 cells. Has anyone transferred from a larger lightly loaded 9 cell student canopy to a more adequately loaded 7 cell? And if so any suggestions?Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay. The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #2 May 31, 2011 QuoteI've spoken with my mentor and various people on the drop zone and they have indicated that they don't see a major issue with me going from a 260 9 cell half ZP canopy to a 7 cell full ZP canopy. This is where this should end. You have your answer, recieved in-person as is appropriate. Lock this thread. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Beachbum 0 #3 May 31, 2011 Preface with, I'm not an instructor or anything, so grain of salt! Not that I would recommend it to anyone (I would NOT, now that I know better!), but I went from a 215 student canopy to my Tri 160. The dz didn't have any smaller student gear. I was supposed to do some jumps on a borrowed 190 in between, but the guy who owned it never seemed to make it out when I was there to do so. So, after much discussion with those in the know, jump # 20 was on my own gear at 1:1. No problems as a result, but I now realize how fortunate I was for that to be the case. I don't think that large a change would happen on most dz's these days. I don't see going from an F-111/zp to a conservative canopy like a tri with full zp to be an issue. If your instructors are ok with you going to your Tri ... why not? If you are nervous about that, I figure your best bet would be to go ahead and do a few jumps on the 220 instead of going straight to your 210. It sure won't hurt you to do it, and it decreases the size change a little bit, at least, plus keeps you on a similar style canopy for the size change. Then, when you do go to the tri, the main change would be the canopy type itself, since 10 sq ft isn't all that big a change in itself at that size. edit/typo correctionAs long as you are happy with yourself ... who cares what the rest of the world thinks? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shah269 0 #4 May 31, 2011 Thank you. I feel fully confident in my instructors and we have discussed the adjustment. We are thinking perhaps one or two radio guided jumps. Just wanted to know if any other people had done this in the past. I understand that a 7 cell has a much steeper glide angle than the standard 9 cell and I understand as a consequence the flare tends to be a bit "stronger". But wasn't sure on the half ZP to full ZP move would be including the reduction in size.Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay. The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iwo 0 #5 May 31, 2011 Quote Of the 9 past jumps half of them have been standup landings. Whats wrong to stay on navigator to nail does landings every time? And how can you half the 9? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shah269 0 #6 May 31, 2011 One was on one leg with a bent knee, The winds. On zero wind days it's a slide. On 5-10mph winds it's a stand up. Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay. The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,523 #7 May 31, 2011 Quote ...Has anyone transferred from a larger lightly loaded 9 cell student canopy to a more adequately loaded 7 cell? And if so any suggestions? First off - Follow the advice of your instructors. What works for some may or may not work for you. (standard disclaimer) But to answer the specific question I quoted above - Yes. I went from a 288 Manta to a 190 Tri loaded at 1:1. Where I jumped there were no intermediate options. I was standing up almost all my landings, and was reasonably on target almost all the time (almost because stuff happens, and when in doubt, PLF). The first jump on the Tri was a high hop&pop, and I spent most of the canopy ride doing practice flares to get the feel. I didn't have any problems flying or landing. YMMV "There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #8 May 31, 2011 QuoteThe winds. On zero wind days it's a slide. On 5-10mph winds it's a stand up. Assuming that the canopy isn't completely ragged out (ie out of trim, thousands of jumps, should have been retired two seasons ago), that's a good indication that you aren't finishing your flare. If the canopy is so old that it can't be landed standing up in no wind by an average student, it really isn't suitable for student use anymore, don't you think? At what you load a 260 at, you should be able to completely stop it in no wind. If you can't, some more work on effective flare technique might be advisable. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shah269 0 #9 May 31, 2011 I'm 175lbs. I'm not sure how many jumps the 260 has on it. But it does pack rather easily and has a few patches. Opens OK lands great in 5-10mph winds. When zero winds I come in with a bit more speed and thus I PLF/Slide. Yes I agree 100% I am not at 100% flare. My hands are by my gut rather than in my pockets. /knees. OK I'll jump on the 220 and give that a go. It has a few less jumps on it. Thank you everyone. Now we can have our pissing match.Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay. The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pyrotech 0 #10 May 31, 2011 Quote Now we can have our pissing match. When I drink GoFast, sometimes my piss has a light green tint to it. Beat that! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #11 May 31, 2011 QuoteOf the 9 past jumps half of them have been standup landings.... The winds. On zero wind days it's a slide. On 5-10mph winds it's a stand up.... Yes I agree 100% I am not at 100% flare. You are not ready to downsize. 1. You can't land a 260 at less than a 1:1 WL. 2. You ADMIT you are not flaring correctly. Smaller is just going to make those issues WORSE, not better."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #12 May 31, 2011 Quote1. You can't land a 260 at less than a 1:1 WL. 2. You ADMIT you are not flaring correctly. Smaller is just going to make those issues WORSE, not better. What he said. You may not notice it on a 220; much of the time you'll be able to get away with it. You will notice it on a 190 or smaller. Your choice, of course, Understand that getting your flare dialed in now, before you start jumping smaller canopies, will pay huge dividends later. Unless, of course, you enjoyed being broken after a less than ideal flare... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,989 #13 May 31, 2011 >Opens OK lands great in 5-10mph winds. When zero winds I come in with >a bit more speed and thus I PLF/Slide. If you can get it to zero vertical speed in 5-10mph winds then you can get it to zero vertical speed in no wind. What gets most people is that they see the greater groundspeed during a no-wind landing, get worried and flare sooner to slow themselves down. This bleeds off your airspeed up high so you don't have any left for flaring at ground level. This will get worse as you downsize, so probably a good idea to fix it now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shah269 0 #14 May 31, 2011 billvon I'm actually from my personal observations doing the opposite. I notice that at 5-10mph winds, I come into final add pressure to the breaks and "drive" to a nice three step landing (ears, tits, pockets). In the no wind situations I try and do the same but the last 25% of input isn't fast enough to counter. So yes I think you are all right, thought they have been soft PLF/Slides I will do a few more jumps on the 260 then the 220 and then switch to my 210. But regarding the difference between the two one being half ZP and the other being 100% ZP. Will there be a significant difference in "feel" with respect to flaring?Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay. The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,989 #15 May 31, 2011 >I'm actually from my personal observations doing the opposite. I notice >that at 5-10mph winds, I come into final add pressure to the breaks and >"drive" to a nice three step landing (ears, tits, pockets). In the no wind >situations I try and do the same but the last 25% of input isn't fast >enough to counter. Right - and that's what makes me think it's a perception thing. Your canopy flares exactly the same in any wind. It only cares about its airspeed, not your groundspeed, and the wind doesn't change your airspeed. But it does change your perception of the flare. Most people perceive distance partially by speed - if you see something that's not moving fast towards you, your brain says "that's far away" and if you see something that is moving fast towards you, your brain says "duck!" It's a pretty basic instinct in most people, which is why it's hard to overcome. In skydiving, this translates to thinking you are lower than you are when you are landing in zero wind or downwind. It takes some time to overcome. >But regarding the difference between the two one being half ZP and the >other being 100% ZP. Will there be a significant difference in "feel" with >respect to flaring? Usually not. The half-ZP won't last quite as long as the full ZP (i.e. the flare will get mushier as the canopy approaches the end of its life) but they still last a very long time - thousands of jumps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shah269 0 #16 May 31, 2011 billvon Thank you! I will continue to work on it. It's ok better safe than hurt. With respect to "worn out" how do you know if a parachute is worn out?Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay. The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,989 #17 May 31, 2011 >With respect to "worn out" how do you know if a parachute is worn out? The empirical way is just "when it doesn't flare well any more." The technical way is to do a porosity test on the topskin to see how "leaky" the fabric is getting. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 8 #18 May 31, 2011 Quote>With respect to "worn out" how do you know if a parachute is worn out? The empirical way is just "when it doesn't flare well any more." The technical way is to do a porosity test on the topskin to see how "leaky" the fabric is getting. That's not even taking into account the change in flying with some ragged out lines either."I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,989 #19 May 31, 2011 >That's not even taking into account the change in flying with some ragged >out lines either. Yeah, that assumes regular line replacements. I think every ZP parachute I've ever owned has gone through at least one line set. In one case, five. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Blamey 0 #20 May 31, 2011 When you are ready to move off the 260, you could also try another DZ. There are quite a few in your area. One of them probably has a nice NAV 220. Phone around. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shah269 0 #21 June 1, 2011 We have a nice 220 I was planning on going from a 260 =>240=>220 and then 210 But the 240 died. So it's going to be 260 =>220 and then 210Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay. The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 8 #22 June 1, 2011 QuoteWe have a nice 220 I was planning on going from a 260 =>240=>220 and then 210 But the 240 died. So it's going to be 260 =>220 and then 210 When are you going to go to the >8 you've been hunting for?"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sandi 0 #23 June 1, 2011 Next time you jump on a no wind day get someone to video your landing. Preferably someone qualified to go through it with you and help you to get your flare dialed in. It's really helpful to see it on video rather than replaying it in your head. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shah269 0 #24 June 2, 2011 QuoteNext time you jump on a no wind day get someone to video your landing. Preferably someone qualified to go through it with you and help you to get your flare dialed in. It's really helpful to see it on video rather than replaying it in your head. +1 yeah willllll do!Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay. The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
solodude59 0 #25 June 3, 2011 Hmmm... so do you own your rig? I bought my rig after I got deployed, and when I get back, my DZ is talking about giving me a "loaner" canopy to assist in my downsizing. I suppose this question goes out to everyone.. How does a "loaner" work? With my limited knowledge of DZ operations, combined with some basic common sense, I would think that I'd give my current main (Pilot 210) as collateral and keep the loaner (probably Nav 240 or 220 since I started on a 260), or else they could just report the canopy as stolen to USPA. However, the latter choice seems risky, especially considering Im new to the sport. Any ones opinion would be appreciated.In freefall, you have the rest of your life to figure out what's wrong. -Joe, AFF Instructor Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
