Skydiving

[godfrog 2]

I have been around the sport for quite some time and more and more it is becoming a concern to me.
My son did his first AFF last summer and has put together enough money to go straight through the course this summer.
Some years back I wouldn't have givin it a thought, and he is very into the sport because he has grown up on a drop zone.
My concerns are about skydivers attitudes as of the last few years and probably before as the sport has grown in volume, peoples attitudes are changing and the canopy collisions show this.
I am afraid for him in the air! not from the freefall portion of the jump but when he is under canopy.
To many people think that I have bought my ticket and I can do what I want.

Experience is a difficult teacher, she gives you the test first and the lesson afterward

[Hellis 0]

Yup.
It scares me too.
Over here we have a 500 jump limit, after 500 jumps you can jump whatever canopysize you want.

And some (a lot of people) think that is too much.

500 jumps equals about 4 hours under canopy.
Who thought they knew it all after 4 drivinglessons?


Edit: just realised i missed one zero during my head calculation there.
It probably equals about 40 hours not 4.
But still, its not that much

[SRI85 0]

Quote

500 jumps equals about 4 hours under canopy.
Who thought they knew it all after 4 drivinglessons?


Edit: just realised i missed one zero during my head calculation there.
It probably equals about 40 hours not 4.
But still, its not that much

i see you caught your miscalc. i was gonna say, i just checked my neptune and i have 6 hours of canopy time.

[airtwardo 7]

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Yup.
It scares me too.
Over here we have a 500 jump limit, after 500 jumps you can jump whatever canopysize you want.

And some (a lot of people) think that is too much.

500 jumps equals about 4 hours under canopy.
Who thought they knew it all after 4 drivinglessons?


Edit: just realised i missed one zero during my head calculation there.
It probably equals about 40 hours not 4.
But still, its not that much

Yeah...it's not like ya can get a pilots license after 1/4 of those hours of solo!

Oh wait...

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[davelepka 4]

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Yeah...it's not like ya can get a pilots license after 1/4 of those hours of solo!

Oh wait...

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, becoming a skydiver is too easy to compare it to becoming a pilot. To earn a PPL, you need to have money (about $10k), time, and more importantly, the maturity to study, pass a written, impress a CFI, and survive a check ride.

To become a skydiver, you need money (about $1500), a little time, and only to pass a few levels to the satisfaction of an AFF I. Nothing about the process is challenging, or requires much dedication on the part of the student. No part of brings into question you judgement, ability to plan ahead, or overall maturity. If you plan it out right, you never even have to jump in anything but the most ideallic conditions as a student, and then are deemed a 'skydiver' and granted the full privledges of a licensed jumper.

If you make it easy, you'll attract people who are only interested in easy. There may be other types as well, but if the slackers see it as something they can do, you'll have them waiting for your at manifest before the FJC. If you make it easy, you never weed out those who really shouldn't be up there, the bolwing speech isn;t used nearly enough.

Skydiving used to be harder. Gear was heavier, less comfortable, less reliable, less easy to land, pakcers were non-existant, planes were slower, and all of these things made it hard enough that you really had to be 'cut out' for jumping, or you just wouldn't last.

If you make jumping available to everyone, flying in the pattern is going to be similar to driving on the freeway. How safe is that?

[airtwardo 7]

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Quote

Yeah...it's not like ya can get a pilots license after 1/4 of those hours of solo!

Oh wait...

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, becoming a skydiver is too easy to compare it to becoming a pilot. To earn a PPL, you need to have money (about $10k), time, and more importantly, the maturity to study, pass a written, impress a CFI, and survive a check ride.

To become a skydiver, you need money (about $1500), a little time, and only to pass a few levels to the satisfaction of an AFF I. Nothing about the process is challenging, or requires much dedication on the part of the student. No part of brings into question you judgement, ability to plan ahead, or overall maturity. If you plan it out right, you never even have to jump in anything but the most ideallic conditions as a student, and then are deemed a 'skydiver' and granted the full privledges of a licensed jumper.

If you make it easy, you'll attract people who are only interested in easy. There may be other types as well, but if the slackers see it as something they can do, you'll have them waiting for your at manifest before the FJC. If you make it easy, you never weed out those who really shouldn't be up there, the bolwing speech isn;t used nearly enough.

Skydiving used to be harder. Gear was heavier, less comfortable, less reliable, less easy to land, pakcers were non-existant, planes were slower, and all of these things made it hard enough that you really had to be 'cut out' for jumping, or you just wouldn't last.

If you make jumping available to everyone, flying in the pattern is going to be similar to driving on the freeway. How safe is that?

Golden!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[VideoFly 0]

My son started packing when he was 8 and started jumping at 16. Now at 18, he has 700 jumps. We are both feeling the same concerns. When my son started packing, there was not as large a range of canopy sizes at the DZ. More specifically, there were not the small HP canopies we now see being used by some who can handle them and some who cannot. Additionally, years ago, it seemed that we were less tolerant of potentially dangerous behavior, or at least, dangerous behavior did not include as much rapid and difficult to control landings in the mix of conservative flyers in the landing pattern.

I am all for personal freedom at the DZ and the right to advance to HP landings, but the seemingly increased number of potentially dangerous scenarios involving HP canopies sailing through patterns is alarming to my son and me. Furthermore, the cavalier attitude of some of the HP flyers and the resistant-to-protest attitude of more conservative jumpers appears to us to be making skydiving more hazardous than it needs to be. Subsequently, we are jumping less and more concerned about canopy collisions when we do jump. We have always had our heads on a swivel, but it is difficult to avoid someone oblivious to others in the pattern, shooting down from above. This is true, even when we preplan for their presence on the ride to altitude.

The fact is that I have observed many people flying HP canopies without appropriate prerequisite skills. I have also experienced a large level of tolerance for their experimentation. Unfortunately, this scares me too.

[DocPop 1]

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The fact is that I have observed many people flying HP canopies without appropriate prerequisite skills.

This is an interesting statement (and I am not saying that I disagree with you).

What do YOU see as being the prerequisite skills for being OK to fly a certain canopy? Would you echo BillVon's checklist or do you think there is something more?

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[mjosparky 4]

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The fact is that I have observed many people flying HP canopies without appropriate prerequisite skills.

This is an interesting statement (and I am not saying that I disagree with you).

What do YOU see as being the prerequisite skills for being OK to fly a certain canopy? Would you echo BillVon's checklist or do you think there is something more?

You could start with this.

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judgement, ability to plan ahead, or overall maturity

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[airtwardo 7]

You could start with this.

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judgement, ability to plan ahead, or overall maturity

Sparky

[JerseyShawn 0]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, becoming a skydiver is too easy to compare it to becoming a pilot. To earn a PPL, you need to have money (about $10k), time, and more importantly, the maturity to study, pass a written, impress a CFI, and survive a check ride.

To become a skydiver, you need money (about $1500), a little time, and only to pass a few levels to the satisfaction of an
AFF I. Nothing about the process is challenging, or requires much dedication on the part of the student. No part of brings into question you judgement, ability to plan ahead, or overall maturity. If you plan it out right, you never even have to jump in anything but the most ideallic conditions as a student, and then are deemed a 'skydiver' and granted the full privledges of a licensed jumper.

If you make it easy, you'll attract people who are only
interested in easy. There may be other types as well, but if the slackers see it as something they can do, you'll have them waiting for your at manifest before the FJC. If you make it easy, you never weed out those who really shouldn't be up there, the bolwing speech isn;t used nearly enough.

Skydiving used to be harder. Gear was heavier, less comfortable, less reliable, less easy to land, pakcers were non-existant, planes were slower, and all of these things made it hard enough that you really had to be 'cut out' for jumping, or
you just wouldn't last.

If you make jumping available to everyone, flying in the pattern is going to be similar to driving on the freeway. How safe is that?

[DocPop 1]

Quote

Quote

You could start with this.

Quote

judgement, ability to plan ahead, or overall maturity

Sparky

I was thinking more along the lines of canopy skills rather than personality traits - perhaps that's what videofly meant.

I certainly wouldn't disagree with Dave's list either.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

• Quote

[VideoFly 0]

Along with some of the previous comments, I was talking about being able to consistently land a canopy in a safe manner,in a preplanned place, in the best of conditions as well as in bad conditions before downsizing and moving to HP platforms. For that to happen, physical, mental, and attitudinal conditioning and skills are necessary.

[Hellis 0]

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500 jumps equals about 4 hours under canopy.
Who thought they knew it all after 4 drivinglessons?


Edit: just realised i missed one zero during my head calculation there.
It probably equals about 40 hours not 4.
But still, its not that much

i see you caught your miscalc. i was gonna say, i just checked my neptune and i have 6 hours of canopy time.

6 hours of canopytime at 155 jumps?
Did you use the neptune from jump 1?
Im only asking because of the canopytime per jump on average.

My calculation was 5 min per jump, but i think that is to much.
I would think 2.5-3 min is more correct, but 5 was easier to calculate

[shropshire 0]

Quote

Quote

500 jumps equals about 4 hours under canopy.
Who thought they knew it all after 4 drivinglessons?


Edit: just realised i missed one zero during my head calculation there.
It probably equals about 40 hours not 4.
But still, its not that much

i see you caught your miscalc. i was gonna say, i just checked my neptune and i have 6 hours of canopy time.

And of those 6 hours how much of that is learning and how much is just 'boating around'?

How much height do you loose in a slow, medium and fast/snap 360? - What about on rears and now fronts... and now just harness turns?

There's a shit load to learn out there and jump numbers/flying hours alone, won't get it done. We need a plan ... and a canopy course is a great place to start.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[DocPop 1]

Quote

And of those 6 hours how much of that is learning and how much is just 'boating around'?

There's a shit load to learn out there and jump numbers/flying hours alone, won't get it done. We need a plan ... and a canopy course is a great place to start.

This is a very wise post.

There are canopy pilots, and there are those who simply hang under it until they hit the ground.

Jump numbers is not the way to tell these two groups apart.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[SRI85 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

500 jumps equals about 4 hours under canopy.
Who thought they knew it all after 4 drivinglessons?


Edit: just realised i missed one zero during my head calculation there.
It probably equals about 40 hours not 4.
But still, its not that much

i see you caught your miscalc. i was gonna say, i just checked my neptune and i have 6 hours of canopy time.

6 hours of canopytime at 155 jumps?
Did you use the neptune from jump 1?
Im only asking because of the canopytime per jump on average.

My calculation was 5 min per jump, but i think that is to much.
I would think 2.5-3 min is more correct, but 5 was easier to calculate

i started using it around jump number 50

[Airviking 0]

Yeah, I hear ya. I'm returning after 22 years and I'm not liking what I see. Used to be that if I got hurt, it was most likely my own fault. But now, I'm trying to figure out a way putting as much distance between myself and the guys who want to take it to the limit under canopy.

I believe you have my stapler.