(was archway fatal) Posting at your own risk of well being

[Andy9o8 2]

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The sheriff was notified by my husband about the event, but since the only witnesses were the DZO and two of his 'followers'...no complaint was signed.

Just because the local police refuse to follow-up, that does not have to be the end of it. You can go directly to your county District Attorney's office and ask them to intervene and prosecute. If they refuse, then go to the Criminal Division of the Missouri Attorney General's office.

Plus, many states have a procedure in which citizen/victims can file what is frequently known as a "private criminal complaint" (or some similar term). I don't know whether Missouri is such a state, but you should find this out. Call the DA's office for starters.

Bottom line: the local police are not necessarily the last word on prosecution, and you don't have to roll over and eat it just because they won't act.

[NickDG 23]

I just re-read the fatality thread in its entirety and would like to bring up a few points for thought.

Many manufacturers have a student version of their most popular "experienced" jumper rigs. I think it stems from the old General Motors adage, "If they start out on a cheap Chevy, someday they'll buy a expensive Cadillac." However, this creates several problems relating to taking an existing design meant for experienced jumpers and turning it into a rig suitable for students. BTW, this is nothing new and has been going on for decades.

My point is going to be the following - this is the wrong approach. Student rigs should start out as student rigs right on the drawing board. Even if the final product bears little resemblance to a firm’s flagship rig. Instructors, especially the ones who know little to nothing about rigging, airplane mechanics, pilots, etc, already have to take too many things on faith when it comes to outside influences that can affect the safety of their students. So if we start to eliminate those things one by one at least we’d be on the right road to eliminating some problems.

For instance: Some "student rigs" have the AAD's cutter mounted in the bottom of the reserve container and some have the AAD's cutter mounted under an upper closing flap. With the latter it’s usually possible to visually inspect to see if the reserve closing loop is through the cutter (even if you have to get creative with a penlight.) With the former you have to take it on faith. I’m not saying we should mandate the cutters location but it’s something to consider when making that next major student rig purchase.

Another for instance: A manufacturer has a popular rig meant for experienced jumpers and decides to come out with a “student version.” So they take a main container that was originally designed to be opened via a throw out (or pull out) style of pilot chute system and they simply install a spring loaded pilot chute inside the container and call it good to go. The problem with this usually appears in the container’s final pin protector flap. Especially the ones with large stiff tongues.

I’ve worked with a lot of student rigs over the years (from different manufacturers) where it was SOP for an Instructor to open the pin protector flap on the main container during the final gear check, or just prior to exit, to prevent total malfunctions. And this practice came about because there aren’t too many very experienced AFF Instructors who haven’t had to punch open a student’s main container, that contained a spring loaded pilot chute, after it totaled following a good main ripcord pull by the student.

Moving to throw out pilot chutes for students has gone a long way in eliminating this problem, but there are still many DZs that haven’t made that switch. And, yes, we can debate the merits as either method has inherent problems when it comes to students, but the fact remains having to open that flap is a Band-Aid that should be telling us we are using the wrong gear, set up the wrong way, for the wrong task. This is especially true when students are doing solo freefalls in the static line hybrid programs using ripcords. As sometimes a well meaning “experienced” jumper in the plane will close a student’s pin protector flap without the Instructor noticing it.

Some of these issues have been addressed over the years, but there are still plenty of older student rigs out there that still have these issues.

As for this particular fatality . . . There’s nothing worse (for all of us) than losing a student. But, I’ve always taught future Instructors to take a Father Flanagan approach to teaching skydiving. And that means there's no such thing as a bad student. Now, we all know that’s not entirely true, but it’s your job as an Instructor to keep the “bad students” on the ground until they are up to the task. But once a student is allowed onto a plane it does holds true. At that point there are only bad instructors, bad rig manufacturers, bad airplane mechanics, bad pilots, and just plain bad luck. So when the door opens and the roulette wheel begins to spin, if more than a few of those above factors come into play we are setting ourselves up to lose a bet and pay the price.

So who is ultimately responsible in cases like this? I don't know legal from schmeagle, but morally, I always figure it was the last person in charge of the deceased. That's where the buck stops. The Instructor is the final backstop, the last one in a position to say, "Hey, wait a minute, this is stupid." The last one standing between a student and high speed dirt. But that's in a perfect world not the one we live in.

So the gunplay, the accusations flying back and forth, and the general hue and cry, while surely over the top, are all very human behaviors. And it’s because what we used say to each other out behind the hangar is now being opening discussed here. And I don’t think we’ve truly come to terms with that fact.

But the final point is this. Whomever makes the mistakes in these cases, from the manufacturers who didn’t think through their designs, to the Instructor who doesn't absolutely beat emergency procedures into their charges, to the rigger who for a moment lets their attention wander, and to the AAD manufacturer who haven’t as yet totally goof proofed their setups, they are all going to have to live with this death the rest of their lives. And that’s punishment enough for all . . .

NickD

[leapinartgirl 0]

Backstory-----some years ago----woman fired from skydiving center. Husband fired soon after because woman continues to cause issues at said skydiving center. Threats of violence are made against dzos and employees of dropzone. Legal letters dispatched forbidding said former employees from returning to said dropzone.

[liftedtitan 0]

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But the final point is this. Whomever makes the mistakes in these cases, from the manufacturers who didn’t think through their designs, to the Instructor who doesn't absolutely beat emergency procedures into their charges, to the rigger who for a moment lets their attention wander, and to the AAD manufacturer who haven’t as yet totally goof proofed their setups, they are all going to have to live with this death the rest of their lives. And that’s punishment enough for all . . .

NickD

Very well put.

Moriuntur omnes, sed non omnes vixerunt.

[JohnRich 4]

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Re: Post #21: Although, I'm sure the police would probably be interested in someone carrying a firearm on govt property.

Just because some place might be government property, either federal or state, does not mean that guns are automatically banned.

[mjosparky 4]

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Yes it is true. I may be known for not knowing how to keep my F#*!ing mouth shut, but I am NOT known for lying. The sheriff was notified by my husband about the event, but since the only witnesses were the DZO and two of his 'followers'...no complaint was signed.

I don't know what "law" your sheriff follows, but where I'm from, a gun compliant is ALWAYS investigated. They don't give 2 shits about witnesses etc. You call the police and say someone has a gun, there will be 5 cruisers there in a matter of minutes and they will find out what really happened.

That is why it is a little questionable in my mind, unless people pulling guns on people is "normal" where you live.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[riggerrob 643]

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It's my understanding the "reported" gun puller is appx late 30's to early 40's. in other words not a kid.

Given this: The emotional development and maturity of some people arrests at 17.

"Kid" still applies.

....................................................................

Agreed!

To quote an old roommate/TI - who retired after a long career as a drug-and-alcohol-counsellor-to-troubled teens - "If you do too many drugs as a teenager, you will never grow up."

A couple of those "stoners" tried to change long-standing policies and when I would not go along with them, offered to knock me out!

Sorry, but if someone acts like a school-yard bully, I will call them a school-yard bully in public.

[stratostar 5]

Ok, fair enough, that would explain the bad blood between the parties. With that said, that is no reason to pull a firearm on someone, you could call the cops if they were being a real problem.

The only reason to pull a gun would be if the person had already pulled their gun or knife and was trying to harm another IMHO,

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[Andy_Copland 0]

The point is how do you know there was a gun?

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[Krip 2]

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So, one spouse posts and they pull a gun on the other spouse.

You read it here and you believed, it? All of it?

Hi craig

I don;t have a dog in this fight, just shocked to hearr this crap maybe going on in the SPORT that I used to be part of and proud of.

Do you know something that we don't? The map on your profile is interesting in relation to the DZ in missouri. Do you know the DZO in question?

BTW Merry xmas

[billvon 2,998]

>just shocked to hearr this crap maybe going on in the SPORT that I
>used to be part of and proud of.

It's nothing new. Skydivers have their share of misfits and criminals like any other group. There have been attempted murders, gear sabotage, rapes, suicides, drug running, blackmail, gun brandishings etc for as long as I've been in the sport. Fortunately it's a pretty minor part of the sport. (And even if true, this incident would be a pretty minor addition to that list.)

[Krip 2]

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>just shocked to hearr this crap maybe going on in the SPORT that I
>used to be part of and proud of.

It's nothing new. Skydivers have their share of misfits and criminals like any other group. There have been attempted murders, gear sabotage, rapes, suicides, drug running, blackmail, gun brandishings etc for as long as I've been in the sport. Fortunately it's a pretty minor part of the sport. (And even if true, this incident would be a pretty minor addition to that list.)

Hi BV

Yep all you said is true except "back in the day"(aka pre BV ) that stuff was mosltly restricted to the east and west coast, and without the internet everything was a rumor.

BTW you left out adultry, divorce, bare knuckle fighting sabatoged airplanes. All of these events are minor in the big picture except to the people who died and their loved ones that will never forget.

One Jump Wonder

[craigbey 0]

Sorry, I don't know any of the parties involved in the alleged incident. But it is an exciting story, isn't it?


Now, if I can get someone to play Feliz Navidad on their bagpipes, I'll be right as rain.

[lopullterri 0]

It is not where I live. And the Sheriff's dept. is very small. I believe that he was trying to save my husband from a trespassing arrest, though a misdemeanor and a $100 fine would have been worth it in my opinion. If the sheriff went there and saw no gun in sight and no witness...there would be nothing for him to do. Plain and simple and the way the things are dealt with in a small rural area. I live in Metro St Louis, and you are correct. HERE, there would have been plenty of flashing lights and they would have BOTH been arrested.

~"I am not afraid. I was born to do this"~

[Krip 2]

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Sorry, I don't know any of the parties involved in the alleged incident. But it is an exciting story, isn't it?


Now, if I can get someone to play Feliz Navidad on their bagpipes, I'll be right as rain.

I don't find any thing exciteing about this incident. I think the incident if true is very disturbing and I hope there's a good faith effort by the legal system to find out the truth.

Merry xmas back at you


Your attitude speaks for itself

One Jump Wonder

[lopullterri 0]

A partial truth if ever I heard one. The issue of threats being made was a lie and that was proven years ago. A friend of ours stated that "with the loss of all of all the rigging and jump experience of those two leaving, I wouldn't be surprised if someone gets hurt"... at a bar... to the wrong person. She took it back to the DZ and it was twisted to what you stated. And a libelous statement, too.
The really whacky thing was...that they sent letters to others who left with us, but no letter was sent to the guy who made the statement. Maybe because he had REALLY deep pockets and used to spend a TON of money there? Hoping he would return? Go figure!

~"I am not afraid. I was born to do this"~

[liftedtitan 0]

I have a question. And I mean no harm or accusation. But why don't you and your husband just leave, go to another DZ and be done with it? I don't know you, but it sounds like you almost like the drama. Why go back? Why even show up? Put yourself in the DZO's shoes.

I really want to be clear, I know nobody in this incident. Just an outsider looking in with questions.

Moriuntur omnes, sed non omnes vixerunt.

[skyrider 0]

Replying to OP..If said DZO pulled a gun on many of my friends he would be eating lead, Much as he deserved...stupid shit like that only happens because weak people allow it to! JMO

[craigbey 0]

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Your attitude speaks for itself

Yeah ... the comment about the bagpipes was out of context and just plain silly. Kind of reminds me of how this thread got started.

But I didn't make any false accusations or threaten anyone with a gun, so I'm doing pretty well considering the tone of the thread.

[popsjumper 2]

Why are you guys bad-mouthing bagpipes?


So...more comes to light?
OP has had problems at other DZs too?

Is it possible that the OPs husband had a few choice words with the DZO and was asked to leave because of THAT?

Is it possible that the husband went there purposely to adversely "chat" with the DZO?

Is it possible that the chat was originally intended to apologetic in some way and the DZO was not buying in?

Is it possible that the husband had no clue that his presence on the DZ might cause problems?

Why did the people take exception to the husband when it was the wife that posted the comments?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[wmw999 2,452]

This thread is worthless without popcorn

And Krip -- they did stuff in the middle of the country back then, too. Without the internet it just wasn't heard from much.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Ron 10]

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So...more comes to light?
OP has had problems at other DZs too?

Is it possible that the OPs husband had a few choice words with the DZO and was asked to leave because of THAT?

Is it possible that the husband went there purposely to adversely "chat" with the DZO?

Is it possible that the chat was originally intended to apologetic in some way and the DZO was not buying in?

Is it possible that the husband had no clue that his presence on the DZ might cause problems?

Why did the people take exception to the husband when it was the wife that posted the comments?

Why do I feel like I am watching a serial movie and I am about to be told to tune in next week?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[stratostar 5]

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Kind of reminds me of how this thread got started.

So your some kind of expert in knowing how and why people start threads? Or are you speaking of posts made by lowpullterri in the incidents forums?

As for my personal reasons for posting this, I had replied to LPT in the other thread, some of it was taken out of context and the post were removed over there. I don't know personally any of the parties involved, never met them, but I did make a few jumps in Archway when Dave Verner owned it.

I have seen things just like this take place in the industry before, I have seen how once it dose the first thing most people loyal to the dz & dzo do is claim that the person or persons who say "this happened" are called a whole host of things to discredit them and their story. Most all the bandwagon riders blindly ingest the kool aid and are the ones who talk the most shit about how the those people are making up shit to "get even" or are just nutcases.

It has been my experience that well educated professional working people have no need to make up stories to "get even" and in fact would tell the truth because any lies would feed into the other camps propaganda of they are telling lies and are a nutcase trying to ruin the dz & dzo in order to get their jumping friends to shun them and remain loyal little lemmings.

To many newer people to the sport fail to understand or know there is the rules of "keep your fucking mouth shut" we don't teach that in the FJC, many, many people over the years are shocked to learn how unregulated this industry is and how little the FAA over sees things, once something happens and they see how things really work in the sport and how little USPA dose to enforce the GM pledge or BSR's, so in the interest of informing new posters and even some old ones on here, that it's ok to post and speak your mind freely, but beware that if you say the wrong thing about DZO's or their staff, you might find yourself looking down the barrel of a gun in the parking lot or even in the parking lot of your new dz. have calls made to your place of employment, get your ass kicked, have your gear tampered with, find your car tires slashed, or a whole host of things along those lines. It's happened before and it will happen again.

I do take at face value LPT's claim, no, do I believe it could have gone down that way, yes. Do I think if I called and asked for the dispatch log for that night, there would be a dispatch... yes. Do I think it's reasonable to say a rigger is negligent if they pack a student rig and leave the closing loop outside the cutter...? Yes I do think it's a fair statement if in fact that is the truth. I think the same would be said by many people of any rigger who made that fuck up, it's one of the reasons rigging is not a take lightly and do a sloppy job of it kind of deal, peoples last chance to live are on your ticket, even if they should have pulled the reserve ripcord other wise why have AAD's at all.

Over all it leaves one to wonder who is really the one trying to "get even" at who in cases like this.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[airtwardo 7]

I have seen things just like this take place in the industry before...

[davelepka 4]

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Don't know what happen in the incident being discussed, but from the cheap seats, it looks like there was plenty of 'stupid' to go around.

A contributing factor could be the DZOs recent alleged rigging error that contributed to a students death, the subsequent closing/sale of his DZ, and the impending lawsuit he's facing.

I'm not suggesting that his actions were justified, just that when you consider his state of mind, it's easier to understand how something like this could happen. Desperate times call for desperate measures, and I'm sure that the gun-toting DZO considers these to be desperate times.

Again, it doesn't make it right, just easier to understand.