Raft Dives and AADs

[happythoughts 0]

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You never know.

True. But if you wouldn't get on the dive with out an AAD, then why should an AAD change that decision.

I don't know why anyone would say that an AAD is necessary for a raft dive specifically. The danger of having a raft invert under you and whack you is probably similar to that of getting corked.

I usually mention 3 or 4 times during the briefing to Never Get Over The Raft for just that reason.

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"If you think you need certain kinds of safety equipment for a skydive, you need to re-evaluate doing that skydive."

You agreed with the above statement. I was responding to it. I disagree with the attitude regardless of the respect that I have for the speaker.

I do not believe that my training or experience will ever make me totally safe while skydiving. I think I need any safety equipment that I can possibly get. I try to have it available on every skydive.

I have jumped without an AAD. I have one now. It isn't necessary, but I think that it is an excellent idea.

[diablopilot 2]

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It isn't necessary, but I think that it is an excellent idea.

I think we agree here.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[goose491 0]

Using your example which likens being an Officer to being a skydiver where wearing a bullet proof vest is jumping an AAD:

You are reading: "We recommend wearing an AAD for a raft jump." and saying it's like: "The officer can square off with a bullet now that he's wearing a bullet proof vest."

IMHO, a comparison between AAD and bullet proof vest should be more like this: You read: "We recommend wearing an AAD for a raft jump." and think what it says is: "The officer does not need a bullet proof vest everyday... but if he's going with a bunch of his peers to the bust of a crack-house suspected of being fortified, he probably should wear it as his chances of encountering a gun fight are that much greater today."

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[zhark 0]

Here is my take on AAD's. Simply put - "An AAD is there to help protect you from things you have no control over".

What does it mean? It's about level of risks I tollerate. For example:

I skydive...that's a risk I take.
I skydive in my 4-way team...another risk I take.
I skydive with someone I don't know...yes, another risk.

Now, where possible I try to control the risk. When I skydive with my team, whom I trust, the risk is pretty low that I will get knocked out, but it is there! When I skydive solo, the risk is very low that I will lose altitude awareness, but it's there! When I skydive with someone I don't know, the risk is higher that something could go wrong.

So, let's look at the third option. I skydive with someone I don't know....do I (a) say "I have an AAD, I'm okay", or (b) say "Let's find out how much experience this guy has, maybe do a 2-way first and see how he skydives before doing 4-way. And then, just in case, I also have my AAD".

Again, an AAD is there when something beyond your control happens.

I have to jump with students, because I do coaching jumps. Now, if I jump with a student who I've never seen skydive before, I will take every precaution I can. These include a helmet, and an AAD. If the student is bearing down on me at a hectic speed, I will move out of the way, but just in case, I'd like to be wearing my helmet and have an AAD.

You could argue that I shouldn't be doing coaching jumps if I'm unwilling to take the risk. Well I am willing, I just prefer to have the additional safety that an AAD affords me. "Just in case".

Would I go and do a 100-way, because I have an AAD? No. I would be putting myself and others at risk. Would I go do a raft jump? Possibly, but before I do that, I'd attempt to find out what can go wrong, what to expect, jump with people who have had experience before. Decide for myself whether I am willing to accept the additional risk, and then "just in case" I would do the jump with an AAD.

I hope I'm making sense...

Jacques

[kelpdiver 2]

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Here is my take on AAD's. Simply put - "An AAD is there to help protect you from things you have no control over".

Most of the Cypres saves are from obvious jumper error - loss of altitude awareness being high on the list. These are things you have great control over.

What you don't have control over is never making mistakes.

[LawnDart21 0]

Interesting perspective on the vest/aad example, but......

I would think that since an officer can't always choose when he (or she) is raiding a crack house, he (or she) may choose to wear it even in the most mundane of work settings, the idea being the officer cannot with any certainty know when they will or will not need the vest.

The difference, a skydiver can have a say on whether they put themselves in that risky situation, like with raft jumps. Skydivers always have a choice on which jumps they go on, police officers dont always have the choice of when they enter the crack house.

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My other ride is a RESERVE.

[LawnDart21 0]

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When I skydive with my team, whom I trust, the risk is pretty low that I will get knocked out

Ahem...... If you want to know who the three most likely people to kick you in the head in freefall are, look around you next time you are in freefall with your team..........lol

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My other ride is a RESERVE.

[pilotdave 0]

The cop with the desk job doesn't need a vest as much as the cop on the SWAT team.

The average cop on the street may survive his entire career never needing a vest. Some will choose to wear one every day anyway, because they never know, right? Shootings don't just happen when they raid crack houses, they happen on ordinary traffic stops every once in a while.

Do you really think those that have had cypres fires or those that have gone in without an AAD saw it coming before getting on the plane? They happen on regular ordinary jumps too.

But if you're the cop that volunteers to raid crack houses, you probably should wear a vest, right?

The raft dive is just one example that seems pretty obvious as a dangerous skydive. What about AFF instruction? My DZ requires AADs for instructors/coaches. Cause when you're gonna raid a crack house, history has proven that ya might need a bullet proof vest.

Dave

[zhark 0]

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Ahem.....If you want to know who the three most likely people to kick you in the head in freefall are, look around you next time you are in freefall with your team..........lol

Yeah, you're right of course. So far they haven't kicked me too hard...I know my full-face has saved me from grevious harm on occasion..., but generally we try to play nice......i don't think we're quite hardcore ehough to get the serious head strikes!

[LawnDart21 0]

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i don't think we're quite hardcore ehough to get the serious head strikes!

Just remember it doesnt take a hardcore mentality to kick you in the head and knock you for a loop. It can happen on even the most low key pick up team.

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My other ride is a RESERVE.

[LawnDart21 0]

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But if you're the cop that volunteers to raid crack houses, you probably should wear a vest, right?

Absolutely Dave, but...........

I doubt when a cop is given a bullet proof vest he (or she) says to themselves "Alright, now I that I've got my vest (aad) on, let's go raid a crack house!"

I will concede there is some merit to your post, but you are absolutely missing the point of what wearing an AAD is all about.

Bill Booth said it best, (paraphrased) "As equipment advances to make skydiving safer, skydivers will continue to do more dangerous things to keep the death rate in our sport constant."

Back to our earlier posts, for myself (my own personal risk tolerances) I dont consider a raft dive any more dangerous than a solo, because I am selective about the conditions that do them under. I wont go on crazy zoo raft dives just because I have an AAD.

Im bolding this to be clear, the whole point of this thread for me was to get across the point that:

My decisions about personal safety in the air start and finish with what jumps I choose to make, not with what I am wearing on that jump to keep me safe.

That is where safe skydiving comes from. Not from recommendations to wear an AAD on a raft dive.

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My other ride is a RESERVE.

[pilotdave 0]

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I dont consider a raft dive any more dangerous than a solo

I don't disagree with you that it is best to sit out any jump that you consider dangerous. It is best to sit out every jump because they're all dangerous. But some are less dangerous than others.

Your comment above just makes me laugh...or cringe...or... well... I'm not sure how to react. You really believe what you wrote? You believe you are equally safe on a solo as on a raft dive with your hand selected group of friends? You're really gonna sit out when the hot topless girl you don't know gets invited to sit in the raft by one of your friends?

Dave

[billvon 2,991]

>I dont consider a raft dive any more dangerous than a solo . . .

Either you're doing solos over Baghdad or you've never been on a raft dive gone bad.

[LawnDart21 0]

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You really believe what you wrote?

Yes. There may be different risks associated with each jump, raft vs solo, but I would go on a solo with the same emphasis on safety that I would on a raft dive.

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You're really gonna sit out when the hot topless girl you don't know gets invited to sit in the raft by one of your friends?

Yes. Already have. That is where my "safety tolerance" comes into play. I don't consider the fact that I am wearing an AAD as justifaction to see a set of boobs in freefall and put myself on a jump I otherwise would not make, I don't (personal choice) need to sacrifice my safety ideals for breasts.

(side note, there is fortunately no shortage of beautiful women that liek to jump topless in my current cirle of friends, so there wouldnt be an open slot in the raft to begin with.......

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My other ride is a RESERVE.

[LawnDart21 0]

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Either you're doing solos over Baghdad or you've never been on a raft dive gone bad.

I've been on unsuccessful raft dives, even ones that have funnelled out the door. As I answered to Dave above, its not a matter of which jump is safer to me, I feel safe on either jump, ie, they are both within my safety tolerances.

I do tandems, freefly, skysurf, fly camera, big ways, and whenever possible, I swoop. And I am proud to say that I have not yet seen the inside of a doctors office from any injury related to skydiving. Why? I think its 1) I've always been willing to listen to advice, and 2) I choose safe "to me" skydives. That simple. Its worked for almost 2000 jumps, I expect it to work for 2000 more. So when I say I dont see a raft dive as being any more dangerous than a solo, with the right people and right briefing and communication, it doesnt have to be.

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My other ride is a RESERVE.

[billvon 2,991]

>I feel safe on either jump, ie, they are both within my safety tolerances.

Oh, OK. It sounded like you were saying that raft dives weren't any more dangerous than solos. I agree that they can both be done safely - even though a raft dive is considerably more dangerous than a solo.

[LawnDart21 0]

Sorry if that came out wrong. I hate it when work gets in the way of my posting on here....lol

Of course there are additional risks involved in any unusual skydive like a raft, but with the proper prep, and right people & experience, those extra dangers can be mitigated to reduce the "dangerousness" of said unique skydive.

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My other ride is a RESERVE.

[goose491 0]

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I doubt when a cop is given a bullet proof vest he (or she) says to themselves "Alright, now I that I've got my vest (aad) on, let's go raid a crack house!"

You've got the ol' chicken vs. the egg thing going on. It's not a cop deciding to raid a crackhouse because he has a vest. It's a cop deciding to wear a vest because he's raiding a crackhouse.

There's a difference there. The cop who decides to do riskier things because he has a vest is an idiot.

The cop who decides that before raiding that house, he'd better grab the vest which is collecting dust in his locker since he's been enforcing parking laws for the past month... is prudent.


Though I do somewhat understand part of your concern. If you jump an AAD, you jump one. If you don't, you don't. To me, the idea of thinking you may need one "for this particular jump" is out of sink with the concept that those who jump them should pretend like they don't.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[LawnDart21 0]

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The cop who decides to do riskier things because he has a vest is an idiot

Absolutely my point. Replace "cop" with "skydiver" and "vest" with AAD:

The skydiver who decides to do riskier things because he has an AAD is an idiot

And for what will hopefully be the last time I have to repeat this......, THAT is what the recommendation to wear an AAD in the raft dive article was saying. IE, this is a riskier skydive, wear an AAD. If a skydiver will not do a raft jump without an AAD, but will do one with one, he or she is choosing to do exactly what you said in your post, doing riskier things because they have an AAD. Thats it, Period, end of story.

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My other ride is a RESERVE.

[pilotdave 0]

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one of the recommendations of the writers was that everyone on the jump should have AADS

Thats from your first post. The article you read didn't say "if you've got an AAD, try a raft dive!" It said if you are going to do a raft dive, wear an AAD.

Dave

[goose491 0]

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one of the recommendations of the writers was that everyone on the jump should have AADS

Thats from your first post. The article you read didn't say "if you've got an AAD, try a raft dive!" It said if you are going to do a raft dive, wear an AAD.

Yeah, and If you're going to raid crackhouses, you should disconnect your RSL.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[LawnDart21 0]

I also said in the same post

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If your specificaly recommended to have an AAD for a jump, there must be some perception that it may be needed during the dive. If that is the case, then maybe the jump should be reconsidered.

Thats all this is about Dave. I also went on to say:

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Edit to add: I understand from thier POV, why the writers included it in thier recommendation, I just don't agree with it.

And lastly, to quote you:

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It said if you are going to do a raft dive, wear an AAD.

And that brings us full circle. If your recommended to wear an AAD on a raft dive specifically, the next question should be WHY? Why does this jump specifically call for an AAD? And how does that reflect in what I am asking my AAD to do for me on that jump.

I'll say it again Dave, you can point/counter point this for 12 more pages if you want to get in the last word, it doesnt change the fact your only "arguing" semanitics (sp?). Most people (myself included), wouldnt disagree that wearing an AAD on any dive is a good idea, as it is an added layer of safety. But when you start recommending it for a specific jump because it is "a good idea" to have it on a specific jump, anyone that skydives should reevaluate whether that jump is worth making. Period.

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My other ride is a RESERVE.