What are you doing with your argus?

[ibx 2]

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I'm not saying this isn't a serious issue. It is. I was simply addressing the comments that every Argus is now a worthless paperweight. I think it's a tad premature to make that claim.

No thats exactly what t means. The risk of using an Argus is definitely not worth the risk of potentially bringing an entire plane down.

There have been 3 confirmed incidents with one death.

In your opinion, how many incidents are needed to confirm the danger of an Argus ?

[dragon2 2]

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The risk of using an Argus is definitely not worth the risk of potentially bringing an entire plane down.

You got your wires crossed there: the one that can potentially bring down an airplane is the VIGIL (1 and 2). Which has not been grounded.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[jurgencamps 0]

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The cutters for the cypres and the argus are made by the same manufacturer. So maybe we can blame that company.

The Airtec cutter is made by Dynamic-Nobel (Germany).

Argus is using the Nobel Energetics Metron, from Scotland.

As for AAD Vigil, I believe, their cutter comes from Richard Stresau Laboratory, Inc.

I never said something about being identical.

[Ron 10]

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You got your wires crossed there: the one that can potentially bring down an airplane is the VIGIL (1 and 2). Which has not been grounded.

Argus could as well.

You pull lowish and it fires, but does not cut the cable all the way. You get on the next load and all the moving around rips the closing loop. or worse you climb out and the reserve fires.

Both have the potential.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[riggerpaul 1]

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You got your wires crossed there: the one that can potentially bring down an airplane is the VIGIL (1 and 2). Which has not been grounded.

Argus could as well.

You pull lowish and it fires, but does not cut the cable all the way. You get on the next load and all the moving around rips the closing loop. or worse you climb out and the reserve fires.

Both have the potential.

That is true as well.

But "worthless paperweight" is a overly harsh decision at this point.

It is possible (though perhaps unlikely now) that the device can be repaired, that the cutter can be replaced with one that all find acceptable, and returned to service at some later time.

"Paperweight" status says that this can never happen, and that verdict may or may not be in yet.

Now, if some owner wants to say that his Argus really is a worthless paperweight at this time, he is free to do that.

And I invite him to ship that worthless paperweight to me. I'll even pay the shipping.

But if he is not willing to do that, then even he has tacitly decided that the device is not "worthless" yet.

[ibx 2]

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You got your wires crossed there: the one that can potentially bring down an airplane is the VIGIL (1 and 2). Which has not been grounded.

Argus could as well.

You pull lowish and it fires, but does not cut the cable all the way. You get on the next load and all the moving around rips the closing loop. or worse you climb out and the reserve fires.

Both have the potential.

Thats exactly what I mean. I just thought it was evident to anybody discussing this issue.

Thanks for clarifying, Ron.

[Ron 10]

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But "worthless paperweight" is a overly harsh decision at this point.

How about "currently an expensive doorstop"???

Until we know how this will turn out, they are not usable for their intended purpose.

If the company fixes the problem, then it moves back to a viable AAD (The end user has to decide how viable).

But I have seen company's fold over less than this.

I must say that Argus is not handling the situation very well.... They should take a page from the Tylenol (Johnson & Johnson) playbook from 1982.

If they were open and honest, they would get a much better reception. Staying quiet hurts the public image.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[riggerpaul 1]

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But "worthless paperweight" is a overly harsh decision at this point.

How about "currently an expensive doorstop"???

Until we know how this will turn out, they are not usable for their intended purpose.

If the company fixes the problem, then it moves back to a viable AAD (The end user has to decide how viable).

But I have seen company's fold over less than this.

I must say that Argus is not handling the situation very well.... They should take a page from the Tylenol (Johnson & Johnson) playbook from 1982.

If they were open and honest, they would get a much better reception. Staying quiet hurts the public image.

Ron, you and I are not disagreeing.

You said "currently". I said "at this point".

Clearly, both of us admit that the story is not finished yet.

It may be that they do turn out to be worthless as far as skydiving is concerned.

But, in the meantime, "worthless" is not entirely clear, and I'll stand by my offer to take any worthless Argus for the shipping it costs to stop taking up space for the current owner.

[Ron 10]

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Ron, you and I are not disagreeing.

I know... I was just messing with ya on the paperweight thing.

Right now... They are paperweights/doorstops since they cannot be used as they were intended. Although expensive ones.

My only real point was my displeasure at how Argus is handling this. They could do a much better job of being honest.

My *opinion*. They should publish a letter saying:

"Argus is working on a new cutter design and EVERY owner will get this new cutter for free. We apologize for the issues caused. The current design passed all test standards applicable to (Blah, blah, blah) but unforeseen issues have created a situation that demands that we redesign the cutter.

We are working on the new design already, and a new design will take some time to develop, test, and distribute. We are working on getting your Argus back the standard we expect from ourselves."

So far, they have said nothing that I have seen and too be honest it may be too late now that the tiger is out of the cage.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[riggerpaul 1]

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Ron, you and I are not disagreeing.

I know... I was just messing with ya on the paperweight thing.

Right now... They are paperweights/doorstops since they cannot be used as they were intended. Although expensive ones.

My only real point was my displeasure at how Argus is handling this. They could do a much better job of being honest.

My *opinion*. They should publish a letter saying:

"Argus is working on a new cutter design and EVERY owner will get this new cutter for free. We apologize for the issues caused. The current design passed all test standards applicable to (Blah, blah, blah) but unforeseen issues have created a situation that demands that we redesign the cutter.

We are working on the new design already, and a new design will take some time to develop, test, and distribute. We are working on getting your Argus back the standard we expect from ourselves."

So far, they have said nothing that I have seen and too be honest it may be too late now that the tiger is out of the cage.

We are in complete agreement on the events and Aviacom's reaction to them.

What remains is to wait and see if they do something about it. And I also completely agree with your scenario for solution. If they do that, right now, there is still some hope.

Everybody is frustrated - owners (me too) are frustrated, dealers are frustrated, Aviacom is frustrated.

But one sure way to minimize the chance of equitable resolution is to abandon hope and end the story right now.

[racerman 0]

I'm keeping both of mine. After talking to both Nancy and Suzie @ Jump Shack it seems the manufactures are jumping the gun on banning them. Who knows what chain of events happend at San Marcos, the line was cut however. And the so called failure in Poland may have been an out of sequence deployment. The reserve was 3/4 out of the bag with the pilot chute wrapped around the lines. The bottom line...the cutter fired! If anyone has a two pin Argus they'd like to sell pm me with a price.

[billvon 3,008]

>The reserve was 3/4 out of the bag with the pilot chute wrapped around
>the lines. The bottom line...the cutter fired!

Yep, but apparently did not cut the closing loop completely until impact. Which has been the problem with this bunch of cutters.

[Unstable 9]

I'm going to jump my Argus in my rig for a long time. It's a good AAD.

=========Shaun ==========

[dragon2 2]

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You got your wires crossed there: the one that can potentially bring down an airplane is the VIGIL (1 and 2). Which has not been grounded.

Argus could as well.

You pull lowish and it fires, but does not cut the cable all the way. You get on the next load and all the moving around rips the closing loop. or worse you climb out and the reserve fires.

Both have the potential.

But if you get on a plane with a "half fired" Argus you did at least 2 things wrong already:
1) you caused the argus to fire, and so far all fires have been when they were supposed to, ie within parameters not just at any moment.
2) you got in the plane without checking your AAD display (it being blank or giving an error msg about the cuttter).

I say the chance of an argus bringing a plane down is way way lower than the chance of a vigil doing same.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[jurgencamps 0]

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The cutters for the cypres and the argus are made by the same manufacturer. So maybe we can blame that company.

I have to admit that my info was wrong. I believed the one who told me this, grrrrrrr.

[EmuuuH 0]

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I say the chance of an argus bringing a plane down is way way lower than the chance of a vigil doing same.

Why? Because the argus doesn't cut the loop?

[tkhayes 348]

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I'm going to jump my Argus in my rig for a long time. It's a good AAD.

the only problem with that is that if your Argus is in one of the rigs that has banned it, then you are violating federal aviation regulations, your rigger is violating federal aviation regulations, and you are putting your pilot's certificate in jeopardy by jumping in their plane, because effectively they are also violating federal aviation regulations.

[DiverMike 5]

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you are violating federal aviation regulations, your rigger is violating federal aviation regulations, and you are putting your pilot's certificate in jeopardy by jumping in their plane, because effectively they are also violating federal aviation regulations.

wrong on all accounts.

All of the service bulletins I have read have suggested that it be removed prior to the next jump. Every single one of them said 'should'. Not a single one of them said 'must'. It is against recommendations to pack an Argus into some rigs during a reserve repack. Until you need a repack, you are completely 'legal' jumping the Argus. (Though maybe not particularly smart).

I had an Argus in my Dolphin and took it out the day Altico said you couldn't use it. I purchased a CYPRESS with 3 years left and had it put in. 3 days later Altico said it was OK to put an Argus in a Dolphin since the cutter is below the PC.

I, for one, am not going to use the Argus at all until they clear up a few things, but I am not going to throw it away either.

For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.