Spaceland - This CAN'T be true...can it?

[Beachbum 0]

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But we don't tell them that they can't jump ever and they are screwed out of their money. We give them a rain check and they can come back anytime they want.

But if they are from very far away, it could very easily cost them more than the jump to GET back to use it, so they are effectively being told they can't ever use the jump fow which they've paid. That is especially true for someone visiting from outside the US, as I think someone mentioned. I can understand the policy relative to locals, but to me, residency should be considered in there.

Wendy - I think it might have been exactly that ... thanks! I have been to at least 2 of those down there.

About the money on account places ... I get a fluid buildup in one ear almost every time I jump, so am usually limited to 2 or 3 jumps any given dz trip, and sometimes only 1. So, when visiting a dz (my home dz doesn't operate this way) I don't want to put a lot of money down up front if I can't get it back. If they insist I pay up front, I make it a burden for them as well, and do it one jump at a time. Pay, jump, pay, jump. If everyone would do this at dz's operating that way, instead of it being easier for them, it would use up more of the manifestor's time and maybe cause the policy to be rethought. Sort of a civil disobedience thing ... LOL!

As long as you are happy with yourself ... who cares what the rest of the world thinks?

[Mailed_Fist 0]

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>Who's the fox and where is the chicken house?

No one is "guarding" anything. If you don't like it, don't jump there. If you are OK with it, jump there. No foxes or chickens needed.

You're trying to divert from a legitimate point which you seem to not understand anyway.

Foxes don't guard henhouses. They raid them.

And why did you put "guarding" in quotes?

The point is there is a vocal contingency, which might include yourself, that derides the business practices of Skyride. But those same practices are, in fact, not uncommon to general practices in the sport.

So you go right ahead and drive past the local DZ

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If you don't like it, don't jump there.

to a further DZ and see if the money put on account at the local DZ is magically there.

Or if they will honor the purchased tandem ticket (synonym: Gift Certificate) of the local DZ. See if your out-of-town friends can jump at their local DZ with the GC from your local DZ.

Or is that all money that just disappears, unused by the purchaser, goods or services never received?

Your attempted diversion doesn't change the basis of this observation but only illuminates your inability to either, (a) put a line between two points or, (b) discuss the obvious similarity of business practices.

It seems you're posting just to post, not for any real or valid reason. Ever stop yourself and think about it before replying? That's a real question, no PA intended or implied.

[Divalent 145]

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... If you don't like it, don't jump there. If you are OK with it, jump there. ...

Yes, it's a free market and people have the right to vote with their wallets, but it's only fair and honorable if both parties have notice and an equal understanding of the conditions. IMO, having a sign with the blanket statement "no refunds under any conditions" is not sufficient notice for most first time tandem consumers that are naive about how the process works to realize that if they don't jump today, they will only get a raincheck (valid for them only) to jump in the future, even if they will never have an opportunity to revisit the DZ, and absolutely regardless of the reason why they didn't get to jump.

The example of the TV posted above is one such situation where no one would think they wouldn't be entitled to get there money back if the store couldn't deliver the TV, regardless of a posted refund policy. Or if the plane caught fire on the ground and the DZO said "Dang, wish I had sent in my insurance premiums; looks like we are out of business for good!", no reasonable person would expect his next utterance to be "Sorry folks, the sign says no refunds. Here's raincheck as a momento of your visit". Same thing if the DZ just absolutely refused to take them up merely because the guy dated the DZO's sister, or massively overbooked and knew not everyone would get to jump that day. There has to be some exceptions where an honorable and fair business would issue a refund as a matter of course.

And while there may be no law that prevents a DZ from having a rigid no-refund policy, by the same token that DZ has no right *not* to expect criticism of that policy where it clearly resulted in a customer getting screwed. There is a difference between what you are legally required to do, and “the right thing to do”.

DZ aren’t like corner gas stations. Most people’s impressions of how they operate are based on a sample of one. Particularly in the minds of tandem customers that may only jump once or a few times in their lives, it is very likely the case that DZs have a shared reputation. How many tandem rides did this DZ lose because of the experience this visitor related to his friends that lived nearby. And would this person, and his/her friends, have been a bit more reluctant to visit their local DZ near their home for a jump, based on their experience at this one?

[weekender 0]

i think a reasonable person could misunderstand the no refund policy, in this case. Especially a first time visitor. most likely, assuming that they cannot back out of jump once the spot is purchased. its not a stretch to see that some might believe that at the end of the day, if they dont get to jump, they get their money back.

In my opinion, the DZ could be more clear about the policy or more understanding of the mistake. If this mistake has happened repeatedly and they do neither, they aren't people i could be friends with. They arent acting illegally just not imo, decently. I’d still jump there because options are limited. I’m not outraged by it, just don’t respect the way they handle this policy.

"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

[TheCaptain 2]

Well IMHO the tandem students in this thread should have asked some more questions before laying out the money. They are on vacation and were told prior to laying out the money that due to the weather it would be awhile. Why would someone not ask the question what happens if we do not jump today since we do not live around here? Yes, the DZ could have done this or that to help but as consumers it is also part of their responsibility to be ask (especially since they do not live there and there is a sign that states NO REFUND)

Kirk
He's dead Jim

[DiverMike 5]

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should have asked some more questions before laying out the money

They are already trusting the DZ with their life. It may be legal in most states, but not refunding due to weather hold is a breach of trust IMHO. I see no ethical justification for keeping money for a service that was not performed and the person you took the money from did not in any way prevent the service from being performed. It is just plain sleazy.

For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.

[PiLFy 3]

I'm sorry to read this about Spaceland. I was looking forward to visiting them @some point. I will not do business w/a company that operates like this. A lot of DZs do this? So what? It's wrong. My DZ gives a full refund if the weather doesn't cooperate. That's how it should be. Said Newbs will return another day w/an even bigger smile on their faces. Spaceland's policy is penny-wise & pound-foolish. They want to welcome new people into the sport by refusing to give their money back, or stealing $50? Yeah, that's a great way to bring more people into the fold...

[airtwardo 7]

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... If you don't like it, don't jump there. If you are OK with it, jump there. ...

Yes, it's a free market and people have the right to vote with their wallets, but it's only fair and honorable if both parties have notice and an equal understanding of the conditions. IMO, having a sign with the blanket statement "no refunds under any conditions" is not sufficient notice for most first time tandem consumers that are naive about how the process works to realize that if they don't jump today, they will only get a raincheck (valid for them only) to jump in the future, even if they will never have an opportunity to revisit the DZ, and absolutely regardless of the reason why they didn't get to jump.

The example of the TV posted above is one such situation where no one would think they wouldn't be entitled to get there money back if the store couldn't deliver the TV, regardless of a posted refund policy. Or if the plane caught fire on the ground and the DZO said "Dang, wish I had sent in my insurance premiums; looks like we are out of business for good!", no reasonable person would expect his next utterance to be "Sorry folks, the sign says no refunds. Here's raincheck as a momento of your visit". Same thing if the DZ just absolutely refused to take them up merely because the guy dated the DZO's sister, or massively overbooked and knew not everyone would get to jump that day. There has to be some exceptions where an honorable and fair business would issue a refund as a matter of course.

And while there may be no law that prevents a DZ from having a rigid no-refund policy, by the same token that DZ has no right *not* to expect criticism of that policy where it clearly resulted in a customer getting screwed. There is a difference between what you are legally required to do, and “the right thing to do”.

DZ aren’t like corner gas stations. Most people’s impressions of how they operate are based on a sample of one. Particularly in the minds of tandem customers that may only jump once or a few times in their lives, it is very likely the case that DZs have a shared reputation. How many tandem rides did this DZ lose because of the experience this visitor related to his friends that lived nearby. And would this person, and his/her friends, have been a bit more reluctant to visit their local DZ near their home for a jump, based on their experience at this one?

"Caveat emptor"

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[billvon 3,070]

>Foxes don't guard henhouses. They raid them.

Right. And since there is raiding (or guarding) going on, the analogy makes no sense.

>Or is that all money that just disappears, unused by the purchaser, goods or
>services never received?

Disappear? Sort of dumb way to look at it.

I was once doing video for a 4-way team. On the last jump of the day my camera went on the fritz. I did not deliver the product to them, but they paid me for all the jumps that day anyway. Did that money just disappear?

A friend of mine once asked me if I'd do a few AFF's during a boogie. I said sure. Later the student came and asked me what she owed me. I told her that she didn't owe me anything. Did that money just disappear?

On at least two world records I've been on, we didn't make all the jumps we were planning on making - and yet we got no refund at the end. Did that money just disappear?

At the Belize boogie, the weather was such that I only used about half my jump tickets, what with the winds, the weather and the day I couldn't jump because I was decompressing. Did that money just disappear?

In all cases, you could claim that the money "just disappeared" - or that through some evil means it wound up lining a cheater's pocket. Would be sort of stupid though. You pays your money and you takes your chances. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose - but things tend to balance out in the long term.

>So you go right ahead and drive past the local DZ "If you don't like it, don't jump
>there" to a further DZ and see if the money put on account at the local DZ is
>magically there.

Nope, it's not. But by avoiding your local DZ you might never have to feel the agonizing pain of losing out on your fair share of altitude/jumps/refunds etc.

[billvon 3,070]

>Yes, it's a free market and people have the right to vote with their wallets, but
>it's only fair and honorable if both parties have notice and an equal understanding of
>the conditions.

Agreed. Terms should be clear. Most DZ's make it pretty clear, in my experience, but it certainly couldn't hurt to make it even clearer for people who aren't all that attentive.

>by the same token that DZ has no right *not* to expect criticism of that policy where it clearly resulted in a customer getting screwed.

I modified that a little. No DZ has a right to avoid criticism for _anything_ they do. Heck, if they refunded every single tandem who didn't jump, even when they got to altitude but it was cloudy, and to compensate they raised experienced jumper prices by $1 a ticket - they'd probably get criticism for _that._ Which is fine; again, people can jump wherever they like.

>How many tandem rides did this DZ lose because of the experience this visitor
>related to his friends that lived nearby.

They may indeed have lost some.

>And would this person, and his/her friends, have been a bit more reluctant to
>visit their local DZ near their home for a jump, based on their experience at this
>one?

Again, that also may be true. It's up to each DZO to choose a policy that best benefits himself, his employees, his DZ and the jumpers there.

[hookitt 1]

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I get a fluid buildup in one ear almost every time I jump...

If it's chronic, you may want to look into an ear tube. Plus you'll have super hearing in that ear.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[captain1976 0]

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should have asked some more questions before laying out the money

They are already trusting the DZ with their life. It may be legal in most states, but not refunding due to weather hold is a breach of trust IMHO. I see no ethical justification for keeping money for a service that was not performed and the person you took the money from did not in any way prevent the service from being performed. It is just plain sleazy.

I agree, they are simply a SLEAZY operation with no justification for keeping someones hard earned money for no consideration.

I don't give a shit about their no refund policy. They have shown their true character here and I wouldn't give them the time of day not to mention my business.

I like the fact that he posted on the dropzone database here. Maybe it will sink in the heads of the so-called management there and get them to change their policy of screwing people.

This is why I use the credit card as apposed to debit card purchase on anyone I haven't done business with before.
This way its pretty easy to initiate a fraudulent chargeback and the bank will usually rule in your favor, especially when they find out the goods or services were never received.

You live more in the few minutes of skydiving than many people live in their lifetime

[diablopilot 2]

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I'd feel differently if the DZ explained to people that "winds right now have us grounded, but we expect it will clear, but if it doesn't, you only get a raincheck. Do you want to pay now?" (and not by a sign, but by a live person speaking directly to them.)

They do that. Every time. Without fail. I've seen it.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Beachbum 0]

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I get a fluid buildup in one ear almost every time I jump...

If it's chronic, you may want to look into an ear tube. Plus you'll have super hearing in that ear.

If you mean like they put through the ear drum for kids with chronic ear infection problems, I am involved in too many water sport activities (at least from what I am told) for that to be a good option. I believe that what I really need is to get something like a stent put into my eustachion tube to keep it open wider. Thanks to the CRW camp I did recently, I now know that coming down more slowly doesn't cause the problem.

Back to the topic at hand ... I'd like to address the "no refunds" sign part of this. I think that many people coming to a dz for a tandem are likely so caught up in watching, looking around, etc. at this totally new environment/experience that they may never see even a prominently displayed sign. Watch them at your dz sometime. Many remind me of tourists at any attraction ... :) ... all agog!

As long as you are happy with yourself ... who cares what the rest of the world thinks?

[captain1976 0]

Back to the topic at hand ... I'd like to address the "no refunds" sign part of this. I think that many people coming to a dz for a tandem are likely so caught up in watching, looking around, etc. at this totally new environment/experience that they may never see even a prominently displayed sign. Watch them at your dz sometime. Many remind me of tourists at any attraction ... :) ... all agog!

[popsjumper 2]

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Pay, jump, pay, jump.

And of course this is what everyone should do.
Ask about the refund policy before you put in your money and if it's not a policy that you agree with, pay, jump, pay, jump.

People should do that asking beforehand regardless of the type of business they are dealing with.

In the case of the complaints in the OP, it's awfully hard to feel for them because they didn't ask beforehand and at the same time, it's hard to understand the DZs policy especially as it applies to those tho cannot make it back for the rain check jump.

It's extremely hard for me to understand why a full refund is out of order given the reason for not jumping was not the customer's fault.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[davelepka 4]

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I'd feel differently if the DZ explained to people that "winds right now have us grounded, but we expect it will clear, but if it doesn't, you only get a raincheck. Do you want to pay now?" (and not by a sign, but by a live person speaking directly to them.)

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They do that. Every time. Without fail. I've seen it.

You've seen it every time? You've personally watched every transaction with every customer at the window?

I know that this is not the case, and even if they put it plain english 'most' times, it still leaves the door open for it not to be explained, and for the customer to be under a mistaken impression. Keep in mind that even if the office explains that to 99.9% of the customers, the .1% who don't get the explanation are still out 100% of their money (provided they don't get to jump, and are from out of town with no plans to return).

I think an extra page stapled to the back of the waiver would be a good idea. Have it say something to the effect "Paying for your jump will reserve your place in line for the next available airplane and instructor. In the case of weather delays we do not offer refunds, only rainchecks. If we are not jumping due to weather, or there is a possibility of bad weather, you have the choice to withhold payment until we can resume jumping, but you will be placed in line behind customers who have already paid, even if you arrived before them."

Of course, that's just a rough outline, and not a bulletproof legal contract. Either way, if you keep it brief enough that you can print it in fairly large type with a heading of 'Important Payment Information', and a place to sign that they read it at the bottom, it should do the trick to make sure that every customer is informed before making payment.

[DiverMike 5]

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I think an extra page stapled to the back of the waiver would be a good idea.

You are defending how the policy should be implemented. I would like to see someone defend the policy. DZ's are not marketing the possibility of doing a tandem - they are marketing and selling the activity of skydiving. I have yet to see a website say "give us a couple of hundred dollars and if all things go well you can skydive". A tandem is not like AFF or a Belize Boogie. It is a single event that must be paid for in advance. If the DZ for very valid reasons chooses to not allow the event to happen, it should refund the money. Rainchecks are just a way of saying, "you came here once, I'm not sure you are going to come back, so I will hold onto your money"

Can somebody point out how this is the honorable way to handle the situation?

For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.

[davelepka 4]

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You are defending how the policy should be implemented. I would like to see someone defend the policy.

We all know that aircraft are the single biggest cost in skydiving. Let's say you get weathered out for a weekend, you don't have to pay staff, you don't have to pay for fuel, but the aircraft payment (if applicable) is still due. Seeing as tandems have become the cornerstone of any DZs income, this type of policy is a way to maintain cash flow even when the weather doesn't cooperate.

Another thought is the refund process. The bulk of tandems are paid for with credit/debit cards, so there are probably some fees associated with those transactions, which become a loss for the DZ.

Neither of those reasons is for the benefit of the customer, but not all business policies are for the benefit of the customer. There are two parties involved in every transaction, and in some cases one comes out on top, and in some cases the other.

How about the times where a DZO will send a load that gets called back due to winds or clouds? Who pays for the fuel, aircraft time, and the pilot? It's not the customer.

Again, it all comes down to the free-market idea. 'As long as both parties are fully informed', every deal is a fair deal. So if DZOs have either found the need for a no-refund policy, or simply found they can get away with a no-refund policy, their responsibility becomes making sure that the customer is fully informed, and the documnet I suggested above does just that. It explains the policy, offers an incentive to pay up-front, and the option to not.

[riggerpaul 1]

Just wondering...

The video that our tandems watch has Bill Booth telling the tandem jumpers that a full refund is available at least until they suit up.

Does Spaceland use UPT rigs?

Do they use the Bill Booth video?

Are users of UPT gear required to use the UPT video?

[Ron 10]

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They do that. Every time. Without fail. I've seen it.

And I have seen them tell people that it will clear and that they should pay now and wait around since it 'will' clear.

I can understand a no refund policy if the person is local... But if they are traveling from quite a distance that is stupid. Also the 50 dollar transfer fee is stupid as well.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[matthewcline 0]

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Just wondering...

The video that our tandems watch has Bill Booth telling the tandem jumpers that a full refund is available at least until they suit up.

Does Spaceland use UPT rigs?

Do they use the Bill Booth video?

Are users of UPT gear required to use the UPT video? Easy Answer is Yes, the Real Short Answer, No. But it does need to contain every thing Bill mentions in the Video, you can make your own. Get it approved and you are fine.

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[Beachbum 0]

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Back to the topic at hand ... I'd like to address the "no refunds" sign part of this. I think that many people coming to a dz for a tandem are likely so caught up in watching, looking around, etc. at this totally new environment/experience that they may never see even a prominently displayed sign. Watch them at your dz sometime. Many remind me of tourists at any attraction ... :) ... all agog!

Yes, but why put up a sign or even have that policy to begin with. It makes no sense at all to keep peoples money for goods not received.

[NWFlyer 2]

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It is a single event that must be paid for in advance. If the DZ for very valid reasons chooses to not allow the event to happen, it should refund the money. Rainchecks are just a way of saying, "you came here once, I'm not sure you are going to come back, so I will hold onto your money"

Can somebody point out how this is the honorable way to handle the situation?

Not that commercial airlines have the most popular business practices these days, but it's a reasonable comparison as they are selling you "a seat on a flight at a particular day and time." If you buy a non-refundable fare (as most leisure travelers do) and for reasons beyond the airline's control (weather) the flight (and the seat you bought) does not go, the airline, in effect, offers you a rain check (a seat on the next available flight). What they don't offer you is a refund. By purchasing a non-refundable fare, you're taking the risk (in exchange for a cheaper ticket) that the flight will go out when it's scheduled to go out. If it doesn't, you're taking the risk that the "rain check" flight offered to you will still be acceptable for your schedule. If not, you've just lost some or all of the value of that ticket (depending on the airline's policies).

Airlines are a business. Spaceland is a business. We're all free to patronize the ones whose polices we like, and free not to patronize the ones whose policies we don't like. There's a reason I do almost all my traveling on Southwest in addition to the fact that it has the most flights from my local airport; I like their policies with respect to refunds and change fees. Similarly, if I didn't like the policies of one DZ nearby, I might go to another one whose policies I liked better.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[PiLFy 3]

Spaceland's policy on this can be summed up in two words: Bad Faith. Like I said in my earlier post. This is bad business. It is not the way to introduce people to the sport. If a Newb is already scared coming in. Is shafting them over money going to reduce their nerves before they entrust their lives to the DZ? They'll probably come back at some point. Their enjoyment will be impacted by the previous experience. They will probably just get it over with, & never return to any DZ. That's not how to help the sport grow.