Spaceland - This CAN'T be true...can it?

[Throttlebender 0]

But Joe, most people that come to work on those iffy days aren't guaranteed any money unless they jump. The pilots are the only guaranteed daily pay that I know of(and possibly manifest), so in fact, the DZ isn't really out that much money if the day is a wash. I realize that every dollar counts, but good reputation and customer relations are worth the occasional minimal out of pocket expense incurred.

On the other hand, there is a realistic view that most tandems are a one time deal. Most of those people will not be back, so "customer satisfaction" is probably glossed over with this in mind.
BUT in my mind, it's a better all around policy to "expect" that every one of them will become a skydiver and having that in mind, try diligently to establish good faith and loyalty with each and every client.

Life expands or contracts in proportion to one's courage. ~Anais Nin

[jtnesbitt 0]

I agree with what you are saying, and I probably should have clarified. I was mainly addressing the issue of "no refund policies are illegal."

TKs solution is obviously the best for many reasons. I wish he would have continued his example of making the video issue right for the girl, because I have a feeling not only did it make her happy but had some additional incentive for repeat business.

"If this post needs to be moderated I would prefer it to be completly removed and not edited and butchered into a disney movie" - DorkZone Hero

[Throttlebender 0]

Agreed. Although a strict "No refund" policy may be easiest for the DZ, I think that dealing with issues cases by case is the most productive and honorable way to deal with varying situations.

Life expands or contracts in proportion to one's courage. ~Anais Nin

[Mailed_Fist 0]

Touchy, aren't you.

Instead of posting for post numbers, which is what your posts look like, you might consider posting to the relevent points and not spewing inanities.

If I pay a deposit or put money on an account and I'm disallowed using it, that money has disappeared. The DZO has taken it and I get nothing in return.

Damn - you sure need simple things explained, don't you.

Do you care to comment on the similarities between a commond DZ practice and the (GASP!) detested practices of Skyride?

Nothing to say about that? Silence can be more informative than words.

[Mailed_Fist 0]

Quote

I'm just wondering...

If you go through the 'training', have you in fact received something?

Maybe, maybe not, but I am aware of DZs that rush tandems into the video training just so they can keep the money. Regardless of the weather forecast or the obvious impossibility of making jumps, the training is given along with the line, "Well, you've had your training so you'll have to come back for your jump another day."

This used to be known as Highway Robbery.

[billvon 2,989]

>If I pay a deposit or put money on an account and I'm disallowed using it,
>that money has disappeared.

Yep. And if you put the money there knowing that that CAN happen, you have willingly decided to do that. Should there be rules to protect you from yourself? Most people can make intelligent decisions concerning whether or not they want to take that risk. If you do, great. If not, then make the decision to not jump there. Simple.

>Do you care to comment on the similarities between a commond DZ practice
>and the (GASP!) detested practices of Skyride?

The only practice I (GASP!) detest about Skyride is their dishonesty. If they are upfront about what it will cost and how the certificates work, then from a consumer perspective, let the buyer decide.

[Mailed_Fist 0]

"IF"

If pigs had wings, they'd fly.

or

If you're going to enter a discussion, contribute something real and don't hide behind inanities and "if"s.

There's a word that concisely describes that type of avoidance and attempted diversion:

Bollocks.

[billvon 2,989]

>Bollocks.

Why so angry? I told you that my issue with Skyride is their dishonesty. If you think that's "bollocks" then sounds like you have less of an issue with them than I do.

[Ron 10]

Quote

What should a dz do when they weather looks iffy? Call everyone and say "sorry guys dont come to work today."

The point is that the staff told them they would most likely jump and tried to get them to pay. When they didn't jump they didn't get a refund.

So, it the TI going to get paid for the jump he didn't make? Is the fuel vendor going to get paid for the fuel the DZ didn't use? Is the pilot going to get paid for the load he didn't fly? Is the packer going to get paid for the rig he didn't pack? Etc??????

Seems the staff is quick to encourage people to pay now and wait.... I have seen it. If the students had been told, "Hey, it might clear but we would like you to pay now... Of course if you don't jump then you will not get a refund" You think they would have paid right then?

I have been at that DZ for an event and they wanted us to pay for all the jumps up front. The weather looked iffy so I asked about the refund policy. They told me no refunds. So I told them there was no way in hell I was going to pay for all the jumps in advance. They told me I had to... I told them that unless I was able to get a refund there was no way in hell I would pay for all of them in advance.

Now, most Tandem students are not going to be so savvy.

In the end, the DZ didn't provide a service, so they should not charge the customer. There was no additional spoilage.....

It is a crap policy.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[LyraM45 0]

Quote

Quote

What should a dz do when they weather looks iffy? Call everyone and say "sorry guys dont come to work today."

The point is that the staff told them they would most likely jump and tried to get them to pay. When they didn't jump they didn't get a refund.

So, it the TI going to get paid for the jump he didn't make? Is the fuel vendor going to get paid for the fuel the DZ didn't use? Is the pilot going to get paid for the load he didn't fly? Is the packer going to get paid for the rig he didn't pack? Etc??????

Seems the staff is quick to encourage people to pay now and wait.... I have seen it. If the students had been told, "Hey, it might clear but we would like you to pay now... Of course if you don't jump then you will not get a refund" You think they would have paid right then?

I have been at that DZ for an event and they wanted us to pay for all the jumps up front. The weather looked iffy so I asked about the refund policy. They told me no refunds. So I told them there was no way in hell I was going to pay for all the jumps in advance. They told me I had to... I told them that unless I was able to get a refund there was no way in hell I would pay for all of them in advance.

Now, most Tandem students are not going to be so savvy.

In the end, the DZ didn't provide a service, so they should not charge the customer. There was no additional spoilage.....

It is a crap policy.

This is probably the best post in this whole thread. Just think about this logically....No sane person would pay for a tandem after being told by staff "hey-- weather is iffy and it might not clear. Pay for your jump now but if that weather doesn't clear then just remember there's no refunds." Even a wuffo is smart enough to hang out and see what the weather does and then pay for the tandem if it looks to clear or be clearing.

I understand there being a no refund sign....but I agree with other posters who have stated that there are always reasonable isolated exceptions such as this one. If this person was to have gone up on the plane and decided not to jump, then yea-- tough crap for them. No money back. In this situation I just feel like it's wrong if the customer was worked over to believe the weather was going to clear. They don't know any better.

**Edited to add-- I'm not even against issuing rain checks in the event of not jumping. If a large group makes a reservation and then gets weathered out, then all of this is totally understandable with such a policy. What I don't agree with is a situation where a foreigner who strolls up to the dz on their last day in the area gets talked into paying now and waiting for their tandem later that day because the weather will likely clear (and conveniently leave out any reinforcement regarding the refund policy).

Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)

[captain1976 0]

I have been at that DZ for an event and they wanted us to pay for all the jumps up front. The weather looked iffy so I asked about the refund policy. They told me no refunds. So I told them there was no way in hell I was going to pay for all the jumps in advance. They told me I had to... I told them that unless I was able to get a refund there was no way in hell I would pay for all of them in advance.

Now, most Tandem students are not going to be so savvy.

In the end, the DZ didn't provide a service, so they should not charge the customer. There was no additional spoilage.....

It is a crap policy.

[champu 1]

Quote

...those crooks.

For what it's worth, Spaceland refunded my team's incompleted jumps after the USPA Nationals in 2009. (see my posts from back then)

[captain1976 0]

Given the time this thread has been running, I'm surprised to see Spaceland hasn't tried to defend their policy of cheating people.

Its important to know though, so we can all spread the word on probably the SLEAZIEST operators in the business.

You live more in the few minutes of skydiving than many people live in their lifetime

[dqpacker 7]

I think it's funny, that you think they need to reply to you. Who are you and what authority do you have?
Go fucking jump old man, or are you too old and fat to do that so you just fly 182's and check dorkzone.com on the climb?

[DiverMike 5]

I hope there were some missing tags in that post.

If I were running a business that was being poorly reviewed in the largest forum in the industry, I would respond.

I also hope your personal attack was in jest.

For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.

[cocheese 0]

A lesson to all those in business:

A pissed off customer will cost you more than you will ever know.

[stratostar 5]

It's kind of funny just how many people working in and running the industry don't see it that way or seem to think it's ok because there will be another one walking in the door as "that one" is walking out the door.

Hell it's the skyride business model.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[billvon 2,989]

>A pissed off customer will cost you more than you will ever know.

A higher level lesson:

No one really cares what people say on dropzone.com.

[cocheese 0]

I knew you would try to argue with simple logic.

I care about what people say here. I just don't care what YOU say here. Good day.

[billvon 2,989]

>I knew you would try to argue with simple logic.

Not arguing at all. It is indeed a good idea to take care of your customers. I would, however, suggest that it is more important to take care of the jumpers at a DZ than posters on DZ.com. When you are choosing what market demographic to please, a DZ is much better served by caring for frequent jumpers vs. DZ.commers.

[captain1976 0]

It is indeed a good idea to take care of your customers. I would, however, suggest that it is more important to take care of the jumpers at a DZ than posters on DZ.com. When you are choosing what market demographic to please, a DZ is much better served by caring for frequent jumpers vs. DZ.commers.

[cocheese 0]

Pissed off posters will cost the dz where a moderator jumps more than they will ever know.