Anyone wanna Chute and Shoot?????

[Ron 10]

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I looked into the rules once on the Chute & Shoot that was held in Mississippi (?), and didn't like the format, as the parachute accuracy only made up about 5% of the total score. I think it should count for half. Say, three rounds of parachute accuracy for 50% of the score, and then the shooting stuff for the other 50%.

That is why I wanted to make it a pure timed event... Totally fair.

I got the idea from some tactical shoots we hold. In some events we had to perform a task before starting on the targets... It might have been to clear a malfunction, start a fire, do a puzzle..etc.

Well I thought the idea had some merit and would be easy to judge.

For example, how would you make it so the jumping and the shooting was exactly 50%????

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[JohnRich 4]

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how would you make it so the jumping and the shooting was exactly 50%????

You could probably do it with some numerical scoring system. But how about like Style & Accuracy? Jumpers are ranked on where they ranked in Style, and also in where they finished in Accuracy. The two rankings are added together for an overall rank, and the lowest score wins.

For example, if one jumper finished 1st in Style and and 5th in Accuracy, his total overall is 6. If another jumper finished 2nd in Style and 3nd in Accuracy, his total overall is 5, and he wins as overall champion over the first jumper.

Then you'll need tie-breaker rules. Most parachute dead centers and gun bulls-eyes wins.

[robinheid 0]

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Thinking of holding a fun type competition.

The idea is to do a hop 'n' pop, land and drop your gear. On the target will be a magazine for your weapon. You will pick up your mag and then have to move ~100 feet to a firing line where you weapon will be located, load up and engage a course of fire. (Think of it as a hit 'n' chug without the booze).

Thinking of around four rounds:
1. Pistol
2. Rifle/carbine
3. Shotgun/jungle walk
4. Select fire (machine gun)

What, you do not own a machine gun???? Not an issue, I can have loaners available.

I can also make arrangements to have loaners for each weapon system if you are flying in or do not have that type of weapon.

I am even working on having ammo there to buy if you need it so you do not have to lug it all/can't find it/are flying in if you let us know ahead of time.

Simple rules...

1. Safety first.... Seriously.

2. Your time starts when your feet touch and stops when the course of fire is complete.

3. Course of fire is complete when:
* Plates are broken
* Steel is dropped
* Paper has correct number and placement of rounds

4. Lowest time wins.

5. Do something stupid (ND, flag someone... etc) and you will be DQ'd.

The Range/DZ is a grass airport with over 1000 foot runway

Requirements.....Thinking of:
1. 200 jumps Min (due to the landing area and the USPA rules)

2. Some proof of firearms proficiency
* IPSIC/IPDA ranking
* Certificate from training academy
* Military/LEO
* CHL/CWP (Maybe?)
* Personal reference from an instructor (Maybe?)

DZ: Air Adventures in Clewiston, FL. http://www.skydivefl.com/#
Range: Tactical Firearms Academy http://www.tacticalacademy.us/
Date: TBD

Thoughts?

1. GOOD ON YA, MATE. We need more venues for people to shoot, learn about shooting, shoot down stupid notioins about firearms, and make more jumps.

2. I always thought "Para-shooting" was a better term for such events...

3. Being a former paratrooper, I think an integrated event such as the one you propose should require the competitors to jump in with their weapons and ammo, as that most closely approximates the "real world" as well as non-parachute-related shooting competition. I do not know of any where you start the course without your ammo, and then have to go find your weapon. Usually, you start with everything in hand, locked and loaded and ready to go. In this case, weapons would be unloaded until after landing. I'm not sure about your exact setup, but just guessing, I'd say that for safety reasons you'd want them to lock and load after they get to the firing line instead of on the target "X."

6. I don't see anything about hitting a target per se, and how that would be scored -- just "land and drop your gear." It seems to me that you are factoring in accuracy skill via the reduced "run time" of those who actually land on the target (like the hit'n'chug). The real advantage of not tracking parachute accuracy is that it makes the scoring simpler.

However, what occurs to me is that you make a bullseye with a 10-ring and an "X" that's an exact replica of the paper targets at which the competitors will shoot on the range -- and score them the same too. That way you don't have weird calculations to make, and hitting the "X" instead of just the 10-ring gives you a tiebreaker in the same way that it does during the shooting... and people who miss the target get the same scoring for accuracy that they would get if they missed the paper bullseye completely. I agree with another poster that the parachuting accuracy should count for 1/2 of each round's score, so the parachuting accuracy score would be based on a simple formula of:

Aggregate shooting accuracy score + ('chuting accuracy score x number of rounds fired in the shooting portion) = score.

If you are knocking down steel or breaking plates, each plate or steel target gets 10 points like it was a 10-ring hit, then the 'chuting accuracy is figured the same way - ring value x # of rounds fired in that event.

7. Time would start upon landing but, again, would serve only as a tiebreaker: same score, first tiebreaker is time. (Same time, second tiebreaker is "X"hits.) The thing about doing it this way is that is introduces strategy into the event in the form of, "Do I run fast and start shooting while I'm breathing hard, or take my time and get to the firing line with a lower pulse rate?" And, of course, the closer you land to the bullseye, the less running you would have to do. Also, in the plate/steel events, the time tiebreaker will come into play because a lot more people will max out the shooting score.

8. You may need to leave the Class III weapons on the ground due to the law governing their use and "transfer," but with the non-Class III weapons, they could be carried.

9. Parachuting proficiency. Concur that USPA rules should govern the requirement here.

10. Firearms proficiency. I think your idea of a qual day is better than having paper. In my case, for example, I could show you my combat pistol medals from my Army days, and an expired NRA instructor card, or I could show you in a 30-second demonstration per weapon that I know how to carry, load, operate and clear each weapon safely enough to meet the event standard.

11. Whadduhbowt ENTRY FEES and PRIZES? What are you thinking in terms of this?

12. What I wrote above is just slammed out and I may well have missed some important elements, so apologies in advance on that. Whatever you come up with, it'll be great, and good on ya again for trying to put this together!

SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

[Ron 10]

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Most parachute dead centers and gun bulls-eyes wins.

Range is a tactical shoot... there are no bulls-eyes.

I thought about your idea.... But that brings a few issues.

I thought about ranking the accuracy winners from worst to best..

So for example in order of close to far:

Bob 1 foot out (4)
Jim 2 feet out (3)
Mike 2 feet 1 inch out (2)
John 20 feet out (1)

Then do the same for time clearing the targets:

John 51 seconds (4)
Mike 65 seconds (3)
Jim 66 seconds (2)
Bob 2hrs and 10 mins (1)

In this case the ranking would be:
Bob (5 points)
Jim (5 points)
Mike (5 points)
John (5 points)

See the problem?

I could create a "sport sized" scoring system for the landings. And that could work.... But the easiest is flat out time.

I *could* run the event like a hit and chug where a weapon is on the target and you have to land, run to it and (using snap caps) load and dry fire it and your time stops.

Then we could go to the range and run it like a regular comp. Add the two scores and you get the score for each round.

This may be the only way to actually run this event and prevent a slowdown due to AC issues.

Frankly, I love the idea of adding the stress of the jump, acc comp, and tach shoot as one event.... It *may* be impossible based on time.

But that is one of the reasons I started this thread was to get input on how the people that would show would LIKE it to be run.

I am open to any suggestions.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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Being a former paratrooper, I think an integrated event such as the one you propose should require the competitors to jump in with their weapons and ammo, as that most closely approximates the "real world" as well as non-parachute-related shooting competition

Love the idea of jumping "combat ready"... But do not like the additional risk it would bring to the skydiving portion of the program. As a military jumper you know it is not as easy as just strapping a weapon on and getting out of the plane. I don't want to have to do the testing needed to ensure we know what freefall rigging will be safe enough to jump. And I don't want to have to give J&PI's to each jumper to check their equipment.

Plus my least expensive Title II item is over 4K. *I* am not going to risk jumping it and while I am willing to loan my gun out to those that do not have one to shoot... there is no chance in hell I am going to let someone else jump it either. Plus the "control" issues.

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I do not know of any where you start the course without your ammo, and then have to go find your weapon.

I have done plenty of tactical shoots where we start without anything and have to accomplish a task to get the materials.

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It seems to me that you are factoring in accuracy skill via the reduced "run time" of those who actually land on the target (like the hit'n'chug). The real advantage of not tracking parachute accuracy is that it makes the scoring simpler.

Yep the time it takes to land, drop your gear, run to the target, pick up your ammo, run to the range and clear the targets is all added together and is very simple to score.

I have found that time is a very easy way to score.... When you start trying to add in other scoring methods it gets complicated, AND gives people a reason to nit pick the method and bitch about the way the score was completed.

Time from landing to cleared targets is easy and can be briefed in like 30 seconds.

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Parachuting proficiency. Concur that USPA rules should govern the requirement here.

Yes, but depending on how I run it... We could change everything.

1. Say I want to land AT the range and time it all in one shot... (I really like this idea). This will limit to people with 200+ jumps based on the landing area and the "distance to obstacles" in the SIM. (Maybe higher, I have to take an S&TA out there and look around).

However....

2. Say I have the Accuracy portion at the DZ... Then I could let some "A" student participate.

But would that kill the fun a bit?

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Firearms proficiency. I think your idea of a qual day is better than having paper. In my case, for example, I could show you my combat pistol medals from my Army days, and an expired NRA instructor card, or I could show you in a 30-second demonstration per weapon that I know how to carry, load, operate and clear each weapon safely enough to meet the event standard.

I agree.... The RO's wanted a list ways to ensure the person is qualified...... So I was spitballing those ideas. I agree a "range day" would be the best option for everyone.

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Whadduhbowt ENTRY FEES and PRIZES? What are you thinking in terms of this?

Entry fees we are working on... I don't plan on making any money, but I do not want to lose money on the deal.

I have the RO's working on a price to set up, run, and rent the range.... they will get back to me this week.

I need to talk to the pilot and DZO about how much jumps will cost and what plane we will use. We could use the KA on the ride up and hop out... Or we could just take the Cessna 206 for the day (but that means I need an additional pilot). This will be figured out once I decide how and where I am going to run the skydiving portion. The DZ and Range are 8.5 miles apart..... So I would have to figure getting people back to the DZ to take off again.

Once I get the RO/Range fees and figure out the lift ticket issue... I'll be able to figure out fees.

Prizes.... I already have some people lined up to donate prizes... Once I this goes from "idea" to "plan" I'll work on getting more.

thanks for your input.... I am working on it.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[robinheid 0]

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Being a former paratrooper, I think an integrated event such as the one you propose should require the competitors to jump in with their weapons and ammo, as that most closely approximates the "real world" as well as non-parachute-related shooting competition

Love the idea of jumping "combat ready"... But do not like the additional risk it would bring to the skydiving portion of the program. As a military jumper you know it is not as easy as just strapping a weapon on and getting out of the plane. I don't want to have to do the testing needed to ensure we know what freefall rigging will be safe enough to jump. And I don't want to have to give J&PI's to each jumper to check their equipment.

Hadn't thought about the weapons containers and making them all secure. Way too big a can of worms... your plan be way better.

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I do not know of any where you start the course without your ammo, and then have to go find your weapon.

I have done plenty of tactical shoots where we start without anything and have to accomplish a task to get the materials.

[Ron 10]

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You could have two competitor classes: "the DZ class" (for A license and up); and "the range class,"

A good idea, and it would not be too difficult.

I am honestly thinking about maybe doing all the jumps but one at the DZ. Then maybe doing to one into the range + range, then run the three ranges.

I think it might be MUCH faster and I do not want this to drag all day where people just stand around. I want people jumping or shooting.

Maybe split the group into two and one starts at the range, the other at the DZ.

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but do you have a date yet?

Not yet.... Still in "design" phase and trying to get an idea of demand and realistic participation levels.

But it will be 4-6 mths out so people can plan.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[keithbar 1]

sign me up! I'd love to come back down to clewiston to see you guys. and full auto fun is all the excuse i need

i have on occasion been accused of pulling low . My response. Naw I wasn't low I'm just such a big guy I look closer than I really am .

[crotalus01 0]

. You may need to leave the Class III weapons on the ground due to the law governing their use and "transfer," but with the non-Class III weapons, they could be carried.

I, for one, am NOT going to take any chances with my $5K MG by carrying it on a hop-n-pop (assuming that is what you meant).
As far as "transfer", the BATFE requires that the person who is the registered owner be physically present with whoever is in possession of the NFA weapon - it was explained to me that at a range the owner could, for instance, step out to the toilet while a friend was firing the weapon. Personally I would not risk that.
I am fairly certain that they could make a compelling argument in court that allowing someone to skydive with an NFA weapon they did not own would constitute an illegal transfer simply due to the fact that the skydiver could land well away from the owner, jump in a car and be gone with the weapon.
And anyone who owns NFA weapons knows (or should know) that the BATFE does NOT play when it comes to the rules - just look up "constructive intent" if you dont know what I mean by that...

As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD...

[robinheid 0]

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. You may need to leave the Class III weapons on the ground due to the law governing their use and "transfer," but with the non-Class III weapons, they could be carried.

I, for one, am NOT going to take any chances with my $5K MG by carrying it on a hop-n-pop (assuming that is what you meant).
As far as "transfer", the BATFE requires that the person who is the registered owner be physically present with whoever is in possession of the NFA weapon - it was explained to me that at a range the owner could, for instance, step out to the toilet while a friend was firing the weapon. Personally I would not risk that.
I am fairly certain that they could make a compelling argument in court that allowing someone to skydive with an NFA weapon they did not own would constitute an illegal transfer simply due to the fact that the skydiver could land well away from the owner, jump in a car and be gone with the weapon.
And anyone who owns NFA weapons knows (or should know) that the BATFE does NOT play when it comes to the rules - just look up "constructive intent" if you dont know what I mean by that...

D'OH! That is why I said "you may need to leave the Class III weapons on the ground."

Why are you making a federal case out of a statement with which you are in complete agreement?

SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

[Ron 10]

I would not even want someone to lose a Title I weapon in freefall.

Plus the main reason I will not let people jump weapons is I am not willing to watch buba try to rig up some 'method' and risk having an issue in freefall.

I am also not going to sit around and approve different methods, I am not going to sit around and give J&PI's to every jumper with a crazy idea.

So the best answer is to just not let anyone jump a weapon.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[robinheid 0]

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I would not even want someone to lose a Title I weapon in freefall.

Plus the main reason I will not let people jump weapons is I am not willing to watch buba try to rig up some 'method' and risk having an issue in freefall.

I am also not going to sit around and approve different methods, I am not going to sit around and give J&PI's to every jumper with a crazy idea.

So the best answer is to just not let anyone jump a weapon.

+1

Bad idea.

My bad.

Next!

SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

[crotalus01 0]

Why are you making a federal case out of a statement with which you are in complete agreement?

Just to clarify for anyone reading who might be unaware of the laws regarding NFA weapons. As I am sure you aware, 95% of the population in this country would bet you their next 10 paychecks that silencers, MGs et al are ILLEGAL for civilian ownership (even the so-called 2A "nuts" mostly have no clue that you can own such things).
I always try and spread the good news whenever possible

As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD...

[DougH 270]

Make jumpers wait X number of seconds for poor landing accuracy.

Land dead center, run straight for the shooting line.

Land second rig, delay 5 seconds.

Land outside target, delay 15 seconds.

Something like that would only require a timer and the honor system.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[Ron 10]

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Make jumpers wait X number of seconds for poor landing accuracy.

Land dead center, run straight for the shooting line.

Land second rig, delay 5 seconds.

Land outside target, delay 15 seconds.

Something like that would only require a timer and the honor system.

How would this be different than making the jumper run to the target to start the course?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[crotalus01 0]

There is a penalty for poor accuracy before the jumper is allowed to run o the firing line. Dead center = run immediately to the line, 2nd ring = 5 seconds before you can run to the line etc

As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD...

[g_fun 0]

Sounds like a fun time...count me in!

How can I be so thirsty when I drank so much last night?

[Ron 10]

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There is a penalty for poor accuracy before the jumper is allowed to run o the firing line. Dead center = run immediately to the line, 2nd ring = 5 seconds before you can run to the line etc

The original plan is your magazine is on the dead center of the landing target. Land close or far you have to run to the dead center and collect your mag and then run to the firing line.

Land close, you do not have to waste time running to the target.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

Got a quote from the range to "own" it for the day..... Uh, yeah, well.... 2500 for the day.
So if I got 25 people it would be 100 bucks just to cover the range. I'd have to add in lift tickets and that would include zero prizes.

I am going to talk to them about the price, but that would mean I would need to charge quite a bit more than I had intended to get this to work out.

Anyone remember what the old chute and shoot registration was?

Another option is to run the event in two stages:

1. 5 Parachute accuracy jumps, then running to a table to stop your time.

2. Range for the shooting events.

Your time from landing to the table would get added to your time at the range for each round.

This would allow for faster jumping/more jumpers per pass. AND allow for half a range day fee.

Another option is finding another range.... I am working on both.

But would it kill the fun if you did 4 jumps THEN went to the range?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[keithbar 1]

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Got a quote from the range to "own" it for the day..... Uh, yeah, well.... 2500 for the day.
So if I got 25 people it would be 100 bucks just to cover the range. I'd have to add in lift tickets and that would include zero prizes.

I am going to talk to them about the price, but that would mean I would need to charge quite a bit more than I had intended to get this to work out.

Anyone remember what the old chute and shoot registration was?

Another option is to run the event in two stages:



But would it kill the fun if you did 4 jumps THEN went to the range?

not for me. as long as i had a packer

i have on occasion been accused of pulling low . My response. Naw I wasn't low I'm just such a big guy I look closer than I really am .

[Ron 10]

Update.....

Talked to the DZO and he is excited about this.

We might have our own C206 for the event.

I have found a place close to the DZ that will allow a walking shoot where you could have almost a 180* field of fire.... So basically you could have targets on both your left and your right that you will have to clear.

Current plan is to separate the skydiving and the shooting portion a bit.

Participants will be broken down into 4 man groups and the first group will head to the plane. Jumpers will be assigned the left or right target and one left and one right jumper will exit on each pass. There will be two targets in the landing area each with a magazine on the dead center. You will have to land, take off your rig, grab the mag, and run to the table. On the go around, the next two jumpers will exit.

Your time from feet touching down till you get to the table will be your score for the accuracy portion of that round.

Those 4 will then head to the range while the next 4 get on the plane.

Once at the range each shooter will compete in the first shooting event. Your time to clear the range will be added to that rounds accuracy score and that will be your score for that round.

After all 4 in that group are done, they will head back to the DZ, pack and get ready for accuracy round 2.

Thoughts?

Also:
Would you want a Tshirt?
Would you be OK with a higher registration if it allowed more and better prizes?

The goal is about a 50 dollar registration plus jump tickets. If we forgo Tshirts and do not care about buying prizes.... We can easily reduce that.

So, would you rather get a Tshirt and prizes, or save say 25 bucks on the registration?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334