AFF and low altitude exits/deployments

[skytash 0]

This is from the WFFC fatality thread in incidents, but I felt it was more appropriate to have this conversation here:

Ron had posted:

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I wish students had to do like 5 hop n pops from 3.5 grand to prove they could sorta spot, and get over low door fear.

Part of the AFF programme in the UK is a single hop n pop for that very reason (not the spotting actually but the low door fear) mainly to prepare people for the event of a low exit in an aircraft emergency. It is such an integral part of the AFF that I had to do one at the end of my AFF although I moved from the SL system to AFF and already had around 10 jumps from a low altitude on 3, 5 and 10 second delays.

The AFF requirement isn't quite the 5 hop n pops Ron is suggesting, but a step in that direction. Is the UK the only place that requires a hop n pop as a final stage of AFF?

tash

Don't ever save anything for a special occasion. Being alive is a special occasion. Avril Sloe

[kelpdiver 2]

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The AFF requirement isn't quite the 5 hop n pops Ron is suggesting, but a step in that direction. Is the UK the only place that requires a hop n pop as a final stage of AFF?

No, USPA requires the same 3500' clear and pull (within 5 seconds), though it can be done at any point prior to the A license, doesn't have to be immediately after AFF.

[CornishChris 5]

AFF in Australia (although this may be particular to Sydney Skydivers), is three hop n pops. I think these are 5, 4 and 3k although the last one may be 2.5k. This is less to do with spotting however, more to do with low door fear.

I did my AFF in the UK and had 5 static line jumps to help me get over the low exit fear but I still think this is a great idea. I also do a hop and pop every twenty jumps or so just for kicks.

CJP

Gods don't kill people. People with Gods kill people

[phoenixlpr 0]

I donno, but I do know that most of the people does not want to jump hop'n'pop after leaving student status.

I had some fear with low exists. IMHO the only way to go is practice.

[RossDagley 0]

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I donno, but I do know that most of the people does not want to jump hop'n'pop after leaving student status.

I had some fear with low exists. IMHO the only way to go is practice.

Yep bingo.

I came straight off AFF status (7 jumps) then did two solos, straight to Scott Millers canopy course - the next 5 jumps at 5k. Got to the door - "fuck that!" to watch a friend under canopy (also on course). "well, balls to it - if he can do it, so can I. BANZAI!" - in the saddle at 4,600ft. Loved the next 4 jumps It was a piece of cake - but that first one really bothered me at the door. I'm still to do my 3.5k jump for the A licence, but it should be pretty straightforward.

Now wait for all the old bastards to comment about their low exits (sub 1k etc)

[Ron 10]

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I had some fear with low exists. IMHO the only way to go is practice.

That says it all right there....The only way to overcome it is practice.

One exit is not practice. It is an introduction.

Ask yourself this question "How would I react if I had to bail out of a plane at 3 grand? 2 grand? 1500? 1,000?"

If you have never jumed from 3 grand I bet you will be scared to death at 2 grand.

Everyone, if you have not done a bunch of Hop, n Pops.....Try one this weekend. Get over your fear, it will help you later.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[mnealtx 0]

I started out many moons ago as a dope on a rope... so the H&P's never gave me any pause.

To be perfectly honest, a 3k hop and pop to me is LESS stressful than a terninal opening at 3k - just because I know I have *MORE* time to deal with a problem...somewhere between 5-10 seconds longer.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[phoenixlpr 0]

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Everyone, if you have not done a bunch of Hop, n Pops.....Try one this weekend. Get over your fear, it will help you later.

Some people thinks hop'n'pops are for student and accuracy jumpers.

[Ron 10]

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Some people thinks hop'n'pops are for student and accuracy jumpers.

Well they are correct.

I consider myself to be a student, and accuracy will save your life.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[AlexCrowley 0]

I did mine last weekend and loved them. I had to have a couple of friends sit with my wife and explain why I'd be safe doing it, but I stopped being concerned about it after 20 minutes of thinking beyond the initial 'hell thats 1k lower than Ive ever pulled before!'.

I really enjoyed the experience, in two weeks I have the canopy course mentioned above, which I'm really looking forward to. I intend to do a lot of HnPs simply because they're both cost and time effective for someone on a time budget that rarely allows for all day at the DZ. In addition, as a low # jumper I feel that I should concentrate more on canopy control and becoming a solid pilot now I have enough freefall skills to remain stable and perform the basics. Afterall, I can always HnP rather than have a freefall, I'm always going to have to use a canopy whatever style jump I'm doing.

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[phoenixlpr 0]

I don't think so. Swoopers go for hop'n'pop too.

I don't care what they think. I go. A hop'n'pop is a jump too and better than sitting and watch the sky or others jumping.

[nate_1979 9]

H&Ps are also great for those days that your ears dont wanna cooperate

This sucks, I feel another ear infection coming on as I type this

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[skytash 0]

and in places like the UK which often has clouds, frequently the only way you can get a jump in, 'cos we don't bust clouds.

tash

Don't ever save anything for a special occasion. Being alive is a special occasion. Avril Sloe

[JohnMitchell 16]

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To be perfectly honest, a 3k hop and pop to me is LESS stressful than a terninal opening at 3k - just because I know I have *MORE* time to deal with a problem...somewhere between 5-10 seconds longer.

I agree. And the correct answer would be 5 seconds, according th the free fall tables.

[NWFlyer 2]

I jump in the Pacific Northwest, where if you want to jump through much of the year, it's H&P only. I enjoy them from time to time (and for me to say that is huge given that my first two - in the static line progression - were pretty disastrous experiences).

Sure, perfect weather every day would be a nice thing, but I kind of like that I live somewhere where we adapt our skydiving to the altitude we're getting on any given day. That goes for freefall, too ... maybe I'd like to work on diving exits, but on a day we're only getting 9 or 10K, I might choose a linked exit instead to maximize the time we do have on the jump.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[RossDagley 0]

Today was a good example.

Just back from Hinton - two h&p loads to 4.5k, and a "full height" lift to 10k (restricted by the 206 - pac being serviced).

Supposed to be nice tomorrow though, so I'll deffo be slipping in at least one h&p

[monkycndo 0]

My DZ has the landing area a van ride away from the airport. Unless the weather sucks with low cloud deck(seldom), we are at 7-8K in the KA by the time we are over the landing area enroute to altitude. HnPs in the 206 usually involve a student working on their "A" and have to be scheduled. I have helped fill the 206 just so it would go. Not my favorite thing to do but doesn't scare me either. Lately, my ears have been plugged due to summer cold, so might have to get some HnPs at a different DZ just to get into the air.

50 donations so far. Give it a try.

You know you want to spank it
Jump an Infinity

[Mike111 0]

"Just back from Hinton - two h&p loads to 4.5k, and a "full height" lift to 10k (restricted by the 206 - pac being serviced). "

Do you know what the minimum opening altitude is for students once they becone A license holders with regards to hop n pops in the UK. is it 3,000 ft?

Cheers for any info,

mike

[BenediktDE 2]

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Is the UK the only place that requires a hop n pop as a final stage of AFF?

In Germany (just one licence, no A B C D) you have to do 3 exits from 1500 an from 1200 Meter.
One of the examination jumps for the licence is an unstable exit from 1300m or below.

I terribly feared it before the first jump and started to love it later. :)

For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.

[RossDagley 0]

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"Just back from Hinton - two h&p loads to 4.5k, and a "full height" lift to 10k (restricted by the 206 - pac being serviced). "

Do you know what the minimum opening altitude is for students once they becone A license holders with regards to hop n pops in the UK. is it 3,000 ft?

Cheers for any info,

mike

I'm pretty sure its 3.5k, but I'm still on consols. at the moment, so pulling at 4.5k. Without wanting to sound anal, its probably best to ask your instructor (like I'll be doing when I finish my consols!)

--Ross

[cpoxon 0]

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Do you know what the minimum opening altitude is for students once they becone A license holders with regards to hop n pops in the UK. is it 3,000 ft?

Which is it, students or A certificate (no such thing as licenses in the UK)? According to Section 2 (Designation and Classification of Parachutists) Para 1 (General) Sub-Para 1.1 of the British Parachute Assocation Operations Manual, a student is someone below A certificate.

According to Section 8 (Parachuting Limitations) Para 4 (Opening Heights) of the Ops Manual, the minimum opening heights for main parachutes are:

4.1.	Student Parachutists jumping round parachutes		2,000ft AGL


4.2.	Student Parachutists jumping ram-air parachutes		3,000ft AGL


4.3.	FAI ‘A’ Certificate (Red) parachutists and above	2,000ft AGL


4.4.	Student Tandem Parachutists			        5,000ft AGL


4.5.	FAI `C’ Certificate (Red) holders, on displays		1,500ft AGL

Although these are minimums

Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live

[Mike111 0]

Hey,

Thanks very much for the info
Sorry if i wasn't clear with regard to " A license holders" - i meant A certificate once off student status.

Looks like 2,000ft is the minimum opening altitude for A certificate parachutists and above - although like you said, they are the mimimums.

Thanks again, thats a big help,

Mike

[RossDagley 0]

Bear in mind there will also be local DZ restrictions in place that may be higher than these figures.