Does exit order of "same" group types matter?

[Newbie 0]

Specifically - 2-way ff groups, with one doing HD other head up.

Reason i ask is, would it be advisable for the HD and faster 2 way to go first, and the less experienced head up/corkers after? The slower less experienced group might be overtaken in terms of vertical separation (which i know is not as important as horizontal but please read on) in freefall by the next group in HD, who they might then open, and begin to fly back to the dz and potentially be in the air space of the slower fallers/corkers above?

Am i worrying over nothing? I asked someone doing a 2 way head up attempt if a friend and i going hd could go before them and was met by much rolling of the eyes and shaking of the head and "it doesn't make any difference" commentary. It might not be as important as horizontal separation, but is it a point worth considering or was i being overly cautious/asking for something that really didn't make a difference?

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[CornishChris 5]

Also to add to your question - is it worth considering canopy sizes for the groups as you may do on a HnP load?

CJP

Gods don't kill people. People with Gods kill people

[pilotdave 0]

I still believe the slower group should go first. What could the time difference be between the opening of the HD group and the opening of the sit group? Probably no more than a few seconds, especially if the sit group went first. The HD group left way too soon if they have enough time under canopy to get directly under the opening point of the sit group.

Dave

[speedy 0]

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Does exit order of "same" group types matter?

On a crosswind jump run, assuming the wind is coming from the same direction at all heights, no.

I wish that people would take the time to read the resources available and then answer such questions themselves, or in discussion with other experienced people at the DZ.

Sometimes it is difficult to answer yes or no and what people really need is to understand what the variables are.

Try starting here http://www.iit.edu/~kallend/skydive/#resources

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[Newbie 0]

Quote

Quote

Does exit order of "same" group types matter?

On a crosswind jump run, assuming the wind is coming from the same direction at all heights, no.

I wish that people would take the time to read the resources available and then answer such questions themselves, or in discussion with other experienced people at the DZ.

Sometimes it is difficult to answer yes or no and what people really need is to understand what the variables are.

Try starting here http://www.iit.edu/~kallend/skydive/#resources

Hi, can you please point me to the resource on that page that allows me to read up on exit order for same group types with same sizes. I have looked at that page before, but can't see anything specifically for same group size/type separation issues

Thanks

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[speedy 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Does exit order of "same" group types matter?

On a crosswind jump run, assuming the wind is coming from the same direction at all heights, no.

I wish that people would take the time to read the resources available and then answer such questions themselves, or in discussion with other experienced people at the DZ.

Sometimes it is difficult to answer yes or no and what people really need is to understand what the variables are.

Try starting here http://www.iit.edu/~kallend/skydive/#resources

Hi, can you please point me to the resource on that page that allows me to read up on exit order for same group types with same sizes. I have looked at that page before, but can't see anything specifically for same group size/type separation issues

Thanks

For the same group types and same size, it does not matter. There is a lot of information about calculating the separation, even for when freefliers go before belly fliers. Use the information provided to work out what separation you need to be safe.
I sometimes have slow fallers exiting after fast fallers, I just make sure they have enough exit separation.

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[Newbie 0]

Thanks Speedy. Quick question - when would you put slower fallers out first?

In actuality, was i wrong to ask to go first? If we use the traditional means to calculate separation, should i have been happier that they (the slower fallers, even though they were also freeflying) went first due to longer exposure to wind drift?

Thanks again

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[speedy 0]

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when would you put slower fallers out first?

At my DZ, the slower fallers nearly always go out first. But that's because of the way we organise our drop run.

What determines who goes before who is dependent upon :-
1) Drop run starting point and ending point relative to the landing area.
2) drop run orientaion to the wind direction.
3) Wind speed/direction at altitude
4) Wind speed/direction at opening height
5) Type of jumpers, Freefly, skysurf, belly, birdman, CRW, atmonauti, track dive etc
6) size of group.
7) size of plane/ number of jumpers exiting
8) Opening altitudes

Anyone want to add some more parameters?

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[Newbie 0]

Ack i'm an idiot. I meant to say, why would you put slower fallers out AFTER the faster fallers, as you indicated in your post. Sorry!

Thanks for putting up those variables though.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[billvon 2,998]

>why would you put slower fallers out AFTER the faster fallers . . . .

Because if jump run is into the wind, putting faster fallers out after slower fallers results in greater separation for all groups.

[Newbie 0]

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>why would you put slower fallers out AFTER the faster fallers . . . .

Because if jump run is into the wind, putting slower fallers out after faster fallers results in greater separation for all groups.

I thought it was the other way around? I checked on Kallends separation indicator and it calculates greater separation for slower fallers out first with a headwind.
What am i missing?

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[billvon 2,998]

>I thought it was the other way around?

D'oh! Typo; I fixed it in my post.

[Newbie 0]

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>I thought it was the other way around?

D'oh! Typo; I fixed it in my post.

LOL glad it's just not me today

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[nbblood 0]

Quote

What determines who goes before who is dependent upon :-
1) Drop run starting point and ending point relative to the landing area.
2) drop run orientaion to the wind direction.
3) Wind speed/direction at altitude
4) Wind speed/direction at opening height
5) Type of jumpers, Freefly, skysurf, belly, birdman, CRW, atmonauti, track dive etc
6) size of group.
7) size of plane/ number of jumpers exiting
8) Opening altitudes

Anyone want to add some more parameters?

Yes. All other things being equal, i.e., same size group, same type of jump, same opening altitude, etc., I compare wingloadings. If I know somebody in that situation has a higher wingloading than me I'll let them out first. If I know I'm higher I'll try to get out first. Helps sort things out in the landing pattern starting from the exit. Of course it isn't always that simple because two jumpers may be doing a jump, one with a high WL and one with a low WL, or any mix among a larger group, but it is something to consider.

Blues,
Nathan

Blues,
Nathan

If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute.

[frost 1]

absolutely. Take into account the size of the canopies also.

SoFPiDaRF - School of Fast Progress in Downsizing and Radical Flying. Because nobody knows your skills better than you.

[EricaH 0]

Not only WL, but also pull altitude. Say there's a guy loaded 2.0, he's pulling @ 4, then there's another guy loaded at 1.3, pulling at 2.5.

I'd guess to put the lower puller out first (given exact same freefall speeds).

My question comes w/ 2 groups of 2 ways, both doing advanced HD. One of the 2 ways has a high & a low puller, the other has both pulling @ 3k. Which group goes first, does it matter? Guessing that so long as both groups (as advanced jumpers should be) are aware of jump run/tracking off of it/not sliding up or down it - it doesn't matter.

There is no can't. Only lack of knowledge or fear. Only you can fix your fear.

PMS #227 (just like the TV show)

[frost 1]

certainly, but that was already included in speedy's post

However, I think this is not THAT important. Besides, opening altitude is NEVER a constant factor, even if you plan on opening consistently at the same point. Also, a lot of times we've let a smaller belly group or even a solo who opens at 4-4.5 go ahead of a larger freeflying group... May be it's a matter of being aware in the air and giving correct separation on the exit?

Of course following the general rules is a good idea. In general :)

SoFPiDaRF - School of Fast Progress in Downsizing and Radical Flying. Because nobody knows your skills better than you.

[EricaH 0]

We always have belly, even solos (pulling below 5 anyway) go ahead of freefly - since we fly an into the wind jump run, it's cause of drift.

someone who's not very savy, but know's their stuff once said "fastest goes lastest" to me when I was learning to sit. the explination, someone learning to sit is going to be on their back & possibly on their belly a lot - thus their ff speeds are in-between belly & ff, so they go between the 2.

There is no can't. Only lack of knowledge or fear. Only you can fix your fear.

PMS #227 (just like the TV show)

[Trae 1]

Less experienced out first if no other major differences .

Leaving less experienced in the plane is less responsible as these are more likely to leave too soon or too late .

I've seen all too often the experienced 'cool' group go first thinking they'll get the good spot, time to pack-up etc leaving the less experienced with the long spot and perhaps long climb out as well. The experienced ones also don't see what the less experienced get up to left to their own devices.

Bigger aircraft with load master = responsible skydiving.

[kallend 2,027]

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>why would you put slower fallers out AFTER the faster fallers . . . .

Because if jump run is into the wind, putting faster fallers out after slower fallers results in greater separation for all groups.

True, but I would see no issue in putting a two-way HD group out ahead of a 20 way RW group on a low to moderate headwind jumprun. The 20 way will take so long to climb out and get set that the separation will take care of itself. (Of course, there's always the possibility that a floater will fall off).

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 2,998]

> but I would see no issue in putting a two-way HD group out ahead
>of a 20 way RW group on a low to moderate headwind jumprun.

Agreed. But that would be true for a two-way HD group followed by a two-way RW group that gave the same separation as the 20 way. The issue is that you need a tremendous amount of separation time when you arrange groups like that; people often aren't willing to do that.