peterjames 0 #1 August 9, 2005 I did my first AFF level 1 jump on the weekend. We seemed to fall straight into an upside down position and almost immediatley lost the secondary jumpmaster. I was desperately trying to arch to face down with no avail. We, the primary instructor and I, then went into an uncontrollable spin; still facing upwards. The spin got faster and we started bumping into each other until he left go. We got slung away from each other and I instantly flipped over finally facing down to earth. After a second I reached and pulled the chute. Is this common ? what do you think happened ? Any comments ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mike111 0 #2 August 9, 2005 Hey, Just to stay don't get too flustered by it, i had the same problem on level 5 but was tumbling and flipping like you were. I dunno if it is common, but im sure youre not the only one it has happaned to. Sorry i can;t contribute anything to hep yer, just thought i would give you a bit of support.edited - looking at your profile you say jump at swindon... is that the new "skydive london" -is it any good? cheers for any info mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,989 #3 August 9, 2005 >Is this common ? what do you think happened ? Any comments ? I've seen it happen a few times. In all cases the student reacted as trained and deployed. Often, when you think you are arching harder, you are extending your legs or arms farther and farther and that's making the spin worse. Your JM will likely have good feedback on how to correct it, most likely with some body position practice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Malta_Dog 0 #4 August 9, 2005 Anyway, kudos to you for keeping a cool head during this stressful moment! All your dropzone are belong to us!!!!111! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
altichick 1 #5 August 9, 2005 Not common but it *can* happen... that's why you spend all that time in class learning what to do if things don't go to plan! Sounds like you were taught the correct way to handle the situation and reacted the right way - well done Consider getting video of your AFF jumps - it might show you what started the flips / spins etc. Even just video of the exit may help. PS: give Brucie and the other Redlands guys a big hug from me! Don't sweat the petty things... and don't pet the sweaty things! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
apoil 0 #6 August 9, 2005 It is typically protocol for the secondary jumpmaster to release if the exit funnels, and that happens on a small percentage of dives. When you are on your back, it can sometimes be difficult for one jumpmaster to fix it due to a variety of reasons. You mentioned that you were trying to arch "face down". But if you are on your back, your arch has to be pointed up at the sky. It's paradoxical, and it's possible that you were trying to roll over one way and your JM was trying to roll you the other way. That's far from the only possibility. You did fix the problem once you were on your own, so it means that you were doing something right. Stay with it. If you can arch like that the next time you exit, you will be fine. No it's not common, but it's also not unheard of. If it happens frequently to those jumpmasters, I'd be concerned about their training, but it can certainly happen to any JM at any skill level from time to time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
outlawphx 1 #7 August 9, 2005 Well, good job on getting belly to earth and pulling! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 643 #8 August 9, 2005 Reminds me of a PFF jump on Sunday. The student double-clutched the exit from the King Air. So I waited patiently while the inside (main side) instructor got her re-focussed on the exit count. When we finally did launch, she never did anything vaguely resembling an arch. Her knees were wide and well forward of her pelvis. I thought I had her in the first second after exit, but she started to backloop. After the second rotation, I let go and lurked ... as per textbook. I had chance to redock at 10,000, but their spin seemed to be slowing down, so I let the main side instructor handle it. I continued to lurk. By 8,000 feet, her had her upright, but she was still de-arched and back-sliding so badly that they were in a violent spin. The main side instructor tossed her pilot chute. I gave him a thumbs-up to reassure him that he had done the right thing, then tracked off. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites peterjames 0 #9 August 9, 2005 Hi Mike, Thanks for your comments. Yes it is Skydive London. Friendly lot, I'd certainly recommend them. Pete Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nate_1979 9 #10 August 9, 2005 QuoteHi Mike, Thanks for your comments. Yes it is Skydive London. Friendly lot, I'd certainly recommend them. Pete I know one of the guys (or the guy?) running the place, infact I saw him this last weekend at san diego, ... Great guy I look forward to the day I make it up near london so that I can jump there. FGF #??? I miss the sky... There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Mike111 0 #11 August 9, 2005 Thanks for the info, much appreciated. Ill definately plan a visit there sometime this year to chekc it out, might even bump into you there!. Good luck with the rest of the training, i hope you solve any probs you have with AFF.Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydivermom 0 #12 August 9, 2005 Hey, This sounds frighteningly familiar! My first AFF went pretty much the same. Never got the arch right and lost one of my instructors. Went on my back twice. My second instructor did let go but not before he pulled for me. I also lost a shoe during the whole ordeal. Got to see a gorgeous sunset though! I did manage to find the dz and land at it, but I didn't flare and hurt my ankle. I then had a "panic attack" about 30 minutes later and left in an ambulance! I jumped again a week later at another dz (this time static line). When I let go of the plane (was hanging from a Cessna) I did a perfect arch! Next to my first jump in my logbook are the words "great arch". What a rush! I'm not telling you to switch to static line, just that I think with practice you will get the arch. Being a student myself, that's really all I can say. That and great job pulling your chute and landing, and lots of luck for the next one!Mrs. WaltAppel All things work together for good to them that love God...Romans 8:28 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tdog 0 #13 August 10, 2005 QuoteWe got slung away from each other and I instantly flipped over finally facing down to earth. That means something went right... Now, how much of it did you do, and how much was dumb luck???? I bet most of it you did (arching/flying your body), which means you have some of the skills instructors look for in future jumps (recover from instability). Congratulations. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bodypilot1 0 #14 August 10, 2005 Quoteuntil he let go. We got slung away from each other and I instantly flipped over finally facing down to earth. Hmm, I'd get another Instructor.... One of the techniques an Instructor MUST HAVE, in order to get an AFF rating, is to be able to stop a students from spinning on his back, and flip the student over belly to earth. NOT just let go. Sounds like your Instructor was keeping you on your back..... Good luck. Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,989 #15 August 10, 2005 >One of the techniques an Instructor MUST HAVE, in order to get an > AFF rating, is to be able to stop a students from spinning on his > back, and flip the student over belly to earth. There is a mode that the exit can get into where the spin gets so fast that the main side really can't do anything other than hold on, and the student's attempts to fix it just make it worse. This has caught JM's from myself to Rick Horn. Consider a sidebuddy where the person being sidebodied just starts tracking as hard as he can. The other person is not going to be able to stop the resulting spin with his legs. The trick in preventing this is not letting it start, or intentionally funnelling it if it _does_ get started (before it gets too fast, of course.) Rick suggested a last-ditch trick if this ever does happen - release, get under him, let him fall into your burble, then grab him as he goes past. That's dangerous in many ways, of course, including the possibility that he will pull just as you pounce on him. Not letting an exit get to this point is way preferable. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bodypilot1 0 #16 August 10, 2005 QuoteThe trick in preventing this is not letting it start BINGO If the Instructor cannot skydive himself, belly to earth, how will he ever expect to upright a student. The Instructor that gets behind the power curve and flips on his back with the student, needs to flip himself over first, then flip the student over. I have GREAT video of a local AFF I that got into a spin with a student and "just let go" after he let the spin accelerate so fast he couldn't hold on, and then preceeded to "just watch" with NO attempt to stop the spinning student . The students spin was very fast out of control, and the student pulled thankfully. The camera flyer got closer to the student then the AFF I would! And to top it off, after the student pulled in a tremendous spin, the AFF I flew over to the camera flyer and high 5'd him with a BIG smile on his face. Be safe. Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jtlmd 0 #17 August 11, 2005 I have seen that video. Hard to fathom that the student was allowed to wind it up that much with no intervention by the guru. Geeking the camera was sort of like farting in church, but what would I know--I don't have 3000 jumps and I have never farted or been to church. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jimshred 0 #18 August 11, 2005 This sounds scary. Glad you survived. Do you remember how you got belly down or was it just luck? I have only done two jumps so far. Both times my exits were poor. I would just launch myself in a belly/hips down position. My instructor says this is wrong and that I need to exit looking up at the plane. He says this will put me in a position with the relative wind that is initially opposite the direction of the plane. Did your instructor say anything during your debrief? Be safe and have fun.______________________________________ "Find your passion, find that thing you love, and, well, get out there and do it" - Jeb Corliss Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bodypilot1 0 #19 August 11, 2005 QuoteI have seen that video. Maybe another just like it, but not this one. It was copied for me by the camera flyer and erased from the camera by the DZM. I haven't let anyone copy it. Be safe. Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Jeth 0 #20 August 11, 2005 Good job for recovering and pulling on your own! I just went through AFP earlier this spring. I never had a bad spin. In all the people I saw go through AFP, I know of 2 people who had bad spins. I believe in one case, the instructor was able to stop them, but in the other they couldn't and he just pulled at 8k in the spin. (He got bad twists and had to chop.) I would hope that your instructors will talk to you about what happened and how to fix it for next time. It is nice to have video on student jumps. But actually, in my experience, even when my instructor was saying "see, you're dropping your knee", that didn't really help me fix it. I eventually just "got it" (which for me was mainly just relaxing). Good luck with your training! Once you learn how to fly it is truely awesome!! "At 13,000 feet nothing else matters." PFRX!!!!! Team Funnel #174, Sunshine kisspass #109 My Jump Site Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Elisha 1 #21 August 11, 2005 Quote...I have never farted... Liar. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jtlmd 0 #22 August 12, 2005 There must be an epidemic! The one I saw last month is on an internet site called skydive movies (?). It generated LOTS of critical comments in the feedback window about the instructor's activities during and after the student deployed while whirling like a pencil sharpener. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bodypilot1 0 #23 August 12, 2005 QuoteThere must be an epidemic! The one I saw last month is on an internet site called skydive movies (?). It generated LOTS of critical comments in the feedback window about the instructor's activities during and after the student deployed while whirling like a pencil sharpener. Let me know where to see it if you remember where. Be safe. Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Cudlo 0 #24 August 12, 2005 Quote QuoteI have seen that video. Maybe another just like it, but not this one. It was copied for me by the camera flyer and erased from the camera by the DZM. I haven't let anyone copy it. Uhh... wtf? Maybe I just don't understand, but that sounds kinda sketchy. This guy get sued recently, or is he just paranoid about someone having evidence while bringing the safety of his training program into question?_________________________________________ "People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid." - Kierkegaard Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bodypilot1 0 #25 August 12, 2005 I'll take door #2. Be safe. Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
riggerrob 643 #8 August 9, 2005 Reminds me of a PFF jump on Sunday. The student double-clutched the exit from the King Air. So I waited patiently while the inside (main side) instructor got her re-focussed on the exit count. When we finally did launch, she never did anything vaguely resembling an arch. Her knees were wide and well forward of her pelvis. I thought I had her in the first second after exit, but she started to backloop. After the second rotation, I let go and lurked ... as per textbook. I had chance to redock at 10,000, but their spin seemed to be slowing down, so I let the main side instructor handle it. I continued to lurk. By 8,000 feet, her had her upright, but she was still de-arched and back-sliding so badly that they were in a violent spin. The main side instructor tossed her pilot chute. I gave him a thumbs-up to reassure him that he had done the right thing, then tracked off. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peterjames 0 #9 August 9, 2005 Hi Mike, Thanks for your comments. Yes it is Skydive London. Friendly lot, I'd certainly recommend them. Pete Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nate_1979 9 #10 August 9, 2005 QuoteHi Mike, Thanks for your comments. Yes it is Skydive London. Friendly lot, I'd certainly recommend them. Pete I know one of the guys (or the guy?) running the place, infact I saw him this last weekend at san diego, ... Great guy I look forward to the day I make it up near london so that I can jump there. FGF #??? I miss the sky... There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mike111 0 #11 August 9, 2005 Thanks for the info, much appreciated. Ill definately plan a visit there sometime this year to chekc it out, might even bump into you there!. Good luck with the rest of the training, i hope you solve any probs you have with AFF.Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydivermom 0 #12 August 9, 2005 Hey, This sounds frighteningly familiar! My first AFF went pretty much the same. Never got the arch right and lost one of my instructors. Went on my back twice. My second instructor did let go but not before he pulled for me. I also lost a shoe during the whole ordeal. Got to see a gorgeous sunset though! I did manage to find the dz and land at it, but I didn't flare and hurt my ankle. I then had a "panic attack" about 30 minutes later and left in an ambulance! I jumped again a week later at another dz (this time static line). When I let go of the plane (was hanging from a Cessna) I did a perfect arch! Next to my first jump in my logbook are the words "great arch". What a rush! I'm not telling you to switch to static line, just that I think with practice you will get the arch. Being a student myself, that's really all I can say. That and great job pulling your chute and landing, and lots of luck for the next one!Mrs. WaltAppel All things work together for good to them that love God...Romans 8:28 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #13 August 10, 2005 QuoteWe got slung away from each other and I instantly flipped over finally facing down to earth. That means something went right... Now, how much of it did you do, and how much was dumb luck???? I bet most of it you did (arching/flying your body), which means you have some of the skills instructors look for in future jumps (recover from instability). Congratulations. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #14 August 10, 2005 Quoteuntil he let go. We got slung away from each other and I instantly flipped over finally facing down to earth. Hmm, I'd get another Instructor.... One of the techniques an Instructor MUST HAVE, in order to get an AFF rating, is to be able to stop a students from spinning on his back, and flip the student over belly to earth. NOT just let go. Sounds like your Instructor was keeping you on your back..... Good luck. Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,989 #15 August 10, 2005 >One of the techniques an Instructor MUST HAVE, in order to get an > AFF rating, is to be able to stop a students from spinning on his > back, and flip the student over belly to earth. There is a mode that the exit can get into where the spin gets so fast that the main side really can't do anything other than hold on, and the student's attempts to fix it just make it worse. This has caught JM's from myself to Rick Horn. Consider a sidebuddy where the person being sidebodied just starts tracking as hard as he can. The other person is not going to be able to stop the resulting spin with his legs. The trick in preventing this is not letting it start, or intentionally funnelling it if it _does_ get started (before it gets too fast, of course.) Rick suggested a last-ditch trick if this ever does happen - release, get under him, let him fall into your burble, then grab him as he goes past. That's dangerous in many ways, of course, including the possibility that he will pull just as you pounce on him. Not letting an exit get to this point is way preferable. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #16 August 10, 2005 QuoteThe trick in preventing this is not letting it start BINGO If the Instructor cannot skydive himself, belly to earth, how will he ever expect to upright a student. The Instructor that gets behind the power curve and flips on his back with the student, needs to flip himself over first, then flip the student over. I have GREAT video of a local AFF I that got into a spin with a student and "just let go" after he let the spin accelerate so fast he couldn't hold on, and then preceeded to "just watch" with NO attempt to stop the spinning student . The students spin was very fast out of control, and the student pulled thankfully. The camera flyer got closer to the student then the AFF I would! And to top it off, after the student pulled in a tremendous spin, the AFF I flew over to the camera flyer and high 5'd him with a BIG smile on his face. Be safe. Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jtlmd 0 #17 August 11, 2005 I have seen that video. Hard to fathom that the student was allowed to wind it up that much with no intervention by the guru. Geeking the camera was sort of like farting in church, but what would I know--I don't have 3000 jumps and I have never farted or been to church. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimshred 0 #18 August 11, 2005 This sounds scary. Glad you survived. Do you remember how you got belly down or was it just luck? I have only done two jumps so far. Both times my exits were poor. I would just launch myself in a belly/hips down position. My instructor says this is wrong and that I need to exit looking up at the plane. He says this will put me in a position with the relative wind that is initially opposite the direction of the plane. Did your instructor say anything during your debrief? Be safe and have fun.______________________________________ "Find your passion, find that thing you love, and, well, get out there and do it" - Jeb Corliss Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #19 August 11, 2005 QuoteI have seen that video. Maybe another just like it, but not this one. It was copied for me by the camera flyer and erased from the camera by the DZM. I haven't let anyone copy it. Be safe. Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeth 0 #20 August 11, 2005 Good job for recovering and pulling on your own! I just went through AFP earlier this spring. I never had a bad spin. In all the people I saw go through AFP, I know of 2 people who had bad spins. I believe in one case, the instructor was able to stop them, but in the other they couldn't and he just pulled at 8k in the spin. (He got bad twists and had to chop.) I would hope that your instructors will talk to you about what happened and how to fix it for next time. It is nice to have video on student jumps. But actually, in my experience, even when my instructor was saying "see, you're dropping your knee", that didn't really help me fix it. I eventually just "got it" (which for me was mainly just relaxing). Good luck with your training! Once you learn how to fly it is truely awesome!! "At 13,000 feet nothing else matters." PFRX!!!!! Team Funnel #174, Sunshine kisspass #109 My Jump Site Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Elisha 1 #21 August 11, 2005 Quote...I have never farted... Liar. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jtlmd 0 #22 August 12, 2005 There must be an epidemic! The one I saw last month is on an internet site called skydive movies (?). It generated LOTS of critical comments in the feedback window about the instructor's activities during and after the student deployed while whirling like a pencil sharpener. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #23 August 12, 2005 QuoteThere must be an epidemic! The one I saw last month is on an internet site called skydive movies (?). It generated LOTS of critical comments in the feedback window about the instructor's activities during and after the student deployed while whirling like a pencil sharpener. Let me know where to see it if you remember where. Be safe. Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cudlo 0 #24 August 12, 2005 Quote QuoteI have seen that video. Maybe another just like it, but not this one. It was copied for me by the camera flyer and erased from the camera by the DZM. I haven't let anyone copy it. Uhh... wtf? Maybe I just don't understand, but that sounds kinda sketchy. This guy get sued recently, or is he just paranoid about someone having evidence while bringing the safety of his training program into question?_________________________________________ "People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid." - Kierkegaard Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #25 August 12, 2005 I'll take door #2. Be safe. Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
