popsjumper 2 #1 January 11, 2011 "Where The Pilot Puts You Out" Unbelievable that people still think in those terms. Does YOUR pilot "put you out" or do you exit using some other method. Ok, OK...the Mike Mullins crowd...I understand your predicament.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,523 #2 January 11, 2011 The pilot doesn't "Put me out", nor do I "put jumpers out" when I'm flying. The pilot gives us a ride to altitude, does his best approximation of jumprun (which gets more and more accurate as the day goes on) and permission to open the door. He/I communicate with ATC, turn as directed by the spotter and pull the throttle back on the "Cut" command (if it is heard - more than once the "Cut" command was the first guy climbing out ). "There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
totter 2 #3 January 11, 2011 Quotethe Mike Mullins crowd "get the f@&* out or your comin' back down with me!" Heard that more than once at a $99 Jump till you Puke boogie Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zlew 0 #4 January 11, 2011 With GPS, and more and more large turbine DZ's the art,skill and even concept of spotting has faded greatly. I can't tell you how many times I've seen people sitting in the door, just looking at the green light (not at the ground...) and waiting to go on green. Or how many times I've seen later groups climb out without ever sticking their head out the door. Many DZ's don't even post the winds aloft anymore. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #5 January 11, 2011 QuoteMany DZ's don't even post the winds aloft anymore. Don't bother asking at Deland, for one.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grimmie 186 #6 January 11, 2011 All of this GPS spotting makes me sad. I'm missing out on a lot of free beer we used to get from the DZ skygods spotting...and putting us out over town or the freeway. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimmytavino 16 #7 January 11, 2011 man,,, even before the door goes up, or is opened, If i'm anywhere near a window, or near the door,,, I Am LOOKING.... checking for a rough direction of flight, a rough idea of where we are relative to the DZ, and checking in case "we are not alone"... Once the door goes Up Or is opened,,, and especially if i'm in an early climb out position,, Then i am REALLY looking... with my head WELL outside the door frame, and scanning out, around, down, and sometimes even UP... I never leave the cabin, without some decent idea of where we ARE.... plain and simple. the P I C gets us there, and signals the all clear to go....but that's where his or her part ends... when i can't personally be there to check, say if i'm in the back part of a group exit... i SURE do HOPE that those At the door are looking for me....and for ALL of us. That is how the "5 seconds between groups," should be spent, and not geeking each other or doing handle checks imho j a 3914 d 12122 POPS 3935 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #8 January 11, 2011 It sometimes amazes me how 'experienced' jumpers often give little thought to just following the 'Lemming Light' and don't look for the spot or traffic. I tried to show a guy the uppers were significantly different than the ground winds, and that we were on a cross wind jump-run at altitude...the side drift was obvious, and that there was a dog leg somewhere about 4 grand...the shadows of the clouds indicated it too was pretty strong. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rick 67 #9 January 11, 2011 Quoteman,,, even before the door goes up, or is opened, If i'm anywhere near a window, or near the door,,, I Am LOOKING.... checking for a rough direction of flight, a rough idea of where we are relative to the DZ, and checking in case "we are not alone"... Once the door goes Up Or is opened,,, and especially if i'm in an early climb out position,, Then i am REALLY looking... with my head WELL outside the door frame, and scanning out, around, down, and sometimes even UP... I never leave the cabin, without some decent idea of where we ARE.... plain and simple. the P I C gets us there, and signals the all clear to go....but that's where his or her part ends... when i can't personally be there to check, say if i'm in the back part of a group exit... i SURE do HOPE that those At the door are looking for me....and for ALL of us. That is how the "5 seconds between groups," should be spent, and not geeking each other or doing handle checks imho j a 3914 d 12122 POPS 3935 +1 I am looking before the red light not just for the spot but also air traffic that may be missed by the pilot. I am checking the winds aloft on the way to the dz. Usually doing bigger RW jumps we will be the first group out. So I try to not to hose the rest of the load. Kind of like spotting for the load and not just your group.You can't be drunk all day if you don't start early! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zlew 0 #10 January 11, 2011 I don't wanna brag or anything....but I used to be pretty good with a WDI. Now that I think of it, I haven't even seen one of those since the DZ closed (8 years ago?). Anybody use WDI's on the first load of the day anymore? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimmytavino 16 #11 January 11, 2011 hell ,, there are a LOT of jumpers who do not even understand the concept of a "dog leg".... let alone how to anticipate or recognize one !!!!!!We're doing good,,,, if people can grasp the idea of freefall drift.... i love to spot, and welcome the responsibility... also willing to take my lumps.... on the rare occasion when i earned them...jmy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DBCOOPER 5 #12 January 11, 2011 QuoteNow that I think of it, I haven't even seen one of those since the DZ closed (8 years ago?). Anybody use WDI's on the first load of the day anymore? Don't see capewells much any more either....Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Joellercoaster 6 #13 January 11, 2011 You still throw a WDI in the UK if you're dropping static-line students... and a fair few places still are.-- "I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan "You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydived19006 4 #14 January 11, 2011 QuoteI don't wanna brag or anything....but I used to be pretty good with a WDI. Now that I think of it, I haven't even seen one of those since the DZ closed (8 years ago?). Anybody use WDI's on the first load of the day anymore? In a 182, every seat's a window seat, both sides! you don't need a WDI. If the pilot will fly a box pattern in the climb, everyone on board can observe the crab angle and roughly calculate the wind speed and direction. Again, every seat is a window seat, I actually prefer sitting behind the pilot and looking back. I spot from back there all the time, and pass corrections up to the pilot. Obviously you don't need to see straight down to know where you are, especially where there are roads or other lines and landmarks. I can pick up a land mark/road five miles out the side and know if we're crossing the end of the runway, etc. I've also had more than one time exited last after giving the aircraft a 90 degree correction and waiting a mile or more to correct a screwed up spot (pilot got the wrong mile road or was an idiot in a Caravan, etc). The Caravan load everyone was watching, and wondering "where the tandem is." Eventually someone looked upwind as opposed to downwind a mile where everyone else was. I will grant you that we don't much look for traffic after opening the door, but we do talk with the pilot, observe traffic, and know through ATC what's out there. MartinExperience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shayelk 0 #15 January 11, 2011 Quotehell ,, there are a LOT of jumpers who do not even understand the concept of a "dog leg".... what IS a dog leg? I'm new to the sport (5 jumps so far) and don't know much more then "when the instructor gives me an o.k, it's o.k to jump" I would love it if you guys wrote a little about the phrases you used in this thread and what I should look for when the door goes up, as I'm trying to learn as much as I can about the sport, and not just jump when the green light is on. thanks! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 220 #16 January 11, 2011 Quote "Where The Pilot Puts You Out" Unbelievable that people still think in those terms. Does YOUR pilot "put you out" or do you exit using some other method. Ok, OK...the Mike Mullins crowd...I understand your predicament. I have been thrown out of the plane by the pilot - he told me to get pout now, or everyone was landing, cuz he was NOT going to expand any more air inside my body.So I I was nice and let everyone else go to altitudeI'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zlew 0 #17 January 11, 2011 QuoteDon't see capewells much any more either.... Haha. True. I don't think there is much use for them anymore (and probably wasn't back then either) but they were fun. Once in a while they would surprise you when they would land great distances from where your educated guess would put it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimmytavino 16 #18 January 11, 2011 oops... good point shayelk, sorry. my understanding of a dogleg is when the winds aloft are blowing from a much different direction, than the ones from opening altitude, to the ground. (sometimes there can even be a dogleg.. between 3 grand and 1 grand...) if your P I C (pilot in command) or DZO posts the winds aloft each day,,, we usually are quick to notice when the Speeds increase as the altitudes increase.. pretty common. However it's also wise to note the radials on which those winds are blowing... exit at 13-five with winds out of 270 degrees,, and winds at 3 grand out of, say, 350... and that sort of a transition is a dog leg... it can be a slight or a Huge difference in direction.. As Twardo points out earlier here, that's why it important to note the direction the plane appears to be flying, and then actually track,, what it's doing across the ground.. to get a feel for any push from the side.. Pilots are usually pretty tuned in, to that, and will compensate on jump run as needed... if however if they are flying a heading which matches the winds on the ground, lets say... and winds aloft are pushing from the side..... OR winds have dramatically Changed,, over the course of a day,,, then jumpers WILL get pushed during freefall, and could wind up well off the wind line at opening.. as for jumping "when the instructor says Go".. you'll likely be Ok because the Jump Master, has already factored in such things,, whether they verbalize that to you ,, or not... as for WDI ( wind drift indicator ), we USED to throw them all the time, but Not much the last 10 or 15 years.... I'll leave the explanation of that for another...But i will mention that one time at an accuracy meet,,, we were on a wind hold.... It started calming down and a wind dummy load was manifested.. I was on it. "This is where the spot "should" be..." some distance off to the SW"... i said,," I'm gonna exit there, and let the WDI streamer out of my hand, AS i leave the plane"..(unlike a conventional WDI launch).. well we got there, and i exited at 2,800 feet or so, and layed the streamer out, just before pulling...The streamer landed IN the peas...I on the other hand, S turned my Papillon one time too many and came up short!!!!!!hahahahaha Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #19 January 11, 2011 turbine-dz, gps, good pilots.. who needs spotting anyway!? “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyrider 0 #20 January 11, 2011 Quote"Where The Pilot Puts You Out" Unbelievable that people still think in those terms. Does YOUR pilot "put you out" or do you exit using some other method. Ok, OK...the Mike Mullins crowd...I understand your predicament. The only time I jumped Mullins Plane, his son was screaming at me to go at WFFC, I told him to kiss my ass, the spot sucked! My waiting 5 seconds got everyone back on target, not in a cornfield! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyrider 0 #21 January 11, 2011 At Perris and Elsinore, (otay also) we get a lot of small plane morons, that want to fly by to watch the skydivers, Only a fool exits just because the light is green without looking! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thrillstalker 0 #22 January 11, 2011 Quote hell ,, there are a LOT of jumpers who do not even understand the concept of a "dog leg".... let alone how to anticipate or recognize one !!!!!!We're doing good,,,, if people can grasp the idea of freefall drift.... i love to spot, and welcome the responsibility... also willing to take my lumps.... on the rare occasion when i earned them...jmy what is a "dog leg"?"Never grow a wishbone, where your backbone ought to be." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bclark 0 #23 January 11, 2011 Wow, I haven't posted on this site in a long time. But this topic caught my eye, both as a skydiver and an (ex)jump pilot. (Caravan, Otter). It is true that many jumpers do not have understanding or practice in spotting that they used to. Often with larger turbine airplanes, and at busy DZs the responsibility for spotting the airplane has been transferred to the pilot. The main reason for this is efficiency. Without fail, put a jumper in charge of spotting the load and they will select the exit point based on where THEY want to exit, without consideration for the rest of the load. This results in lots of go arounds, wasted money and time. (And fewer loads at the end of the day). When you are trying to put 23 jumpers out in one pass, the first people out are going to end up a little short and downwind having to fly in to the wind to make it back. The last people are going to exit pretty long and far upwind having to run the whole way. The guys in the middle should be happy campers and hopefully everyone makes it. Yes, there are some conditions (no wind days at altitude with fast groundspeeds, etc.) where maybe you can't do it in one pass. Obviously, when the green light comes on you should not blindly exit. You should check for traffic and other hazards, but trust that the pilot is spotting for the LOAD. Sometimes you may have to get out a little short or long and take one for the team and the greater good. Maybe you have to pull a little higher to get back... (strange concept, I know). If the pilot f's up and screws the spot, which every one does, kindly talk to him after you land and offer constructive feedback on what you feel needs to change. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,523 #24 January 11, 2011 Quote what is a "dog leg"? If you have a significant change in the winds aloft, your ground track during freefall will have a "corner" in it as you fall. You will be blown one way during part of the freefall, and another during the rest. This can be an issue if you spot according to the winds at jump altitude, and disregard the fact that they are blowing from a different direction lower down. This can be anticipated by watching how the plane is blown as it climbs to altitude. Compare the heading to the ground track to see what the winds are doing to it. One of the only advantages to a Cessna. As was pointed out, all the seats are window seats, and the climb takes enough time that you can really study what the winds are doing."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
totter 2 #25 January 11, 2011 QuoteAnybody use WDI's on the first load of the day anymore? I think you answered your own question: QuoteAnybody use WDI's Quotefirst load The first brave souls of the day are usually the WDIs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
