I ain't going to say nothing.

[airtwardo 7]

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Im a firm believer in these units and would not be opposed to them being required in the future!

What, you got something against thinning the herd?


But seriously, I sometimes wonder if some of those 22 people may have let themselves GET in the position of needing an AOD, because they HAVE and AOD....yeah I called it an AOD.

It's sad time times when a dropzone mandates an automatic opener to jump there, do you also mandate helmets of a certain type, landing patterns and how about swooping?

I mean if you want a warm and fuzzy Nerf world go all the way!

When you open your DZ, you can allow anything you want, just as it's his right to do at his DZ.

Jump at Skydive Twardo where we all have spiked helmets and use an anvil for our spaceball.

That's why I would never open a DZ.
My safety program would be more in line with what we had in the 70'...

You would get tossed for inadequate software NOT hardware.

Basic skydiving skills would be mandated, know how to pack your own shit, know how to spot, land in the peas and sit up when ya dump the reserve...

If ya can't hang with the real dogs head on over to Nerf world where they powder your butt every diaper change!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[skyrider 0]

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Im a firm believer in these units and would not be opposed to them being required in the future!

What, you got something against thinning the herd?


But seriously, I sometimes wonder if some of those 22 people may have let themselves GET in the position of needing an AOD, because they HAVE and AOD....yeah I called it an AOD.

It's sad time times when a dropzone mandates an automatic opener to jump there, do you also mandate helmets of a certain type, landing patterns and how about swooping?

I mean if you want a warm and fuzzy Nerf world go all the way!

When you open your DZ, you can allow anything you want, just as it's his right to do at his DZ.

Jump at Skydive Twardo where we all have spiked helmets and use an anvil for our spaceball.

That's why I would never open a DZ.
My safety program would be more in line with what we had in the 70'...

You would get tossed for inadequate software NOT hardware.

Basic skydiving skills would be mandated, know how to pack your own shit, know how to spot, land in the peas and sit up when ya dump the reserve...

If ya can't hang with the real dogs head on over to Nerf world where they powder your butt every diaper change!

As long as we don;t have to go back to rigs the size of a Karmann Ghia , I'm game....

[airtwardo 7]

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Im a firm believer in these units and would not be opposed to them being required in the future!

What, you got something against thinning the herd?


But seriously, I sometimes wonder if some of those 22 people may have let themselves GET in the position of needing an AOD, because they HAVE and AOD....yeah I called it an AOD.

It's sad time times when a dropzone mandates an automatic opener to jump there, do you also mandate helmets of a certain type, landing patterns and how about swooping?

I mean if you want a warm and fuzzy Nerf world go all the way!

When you open your DZ, you can allow anything you want, just as it's his right to do at his DZ.

Jump at Skydive Twardo where we all have spiked helmets and use an anvil for our spaceball.

That's why I would never open a DZ.
My safety program would be more in line with what we had in the 70'...

You would get tossed for inadequate software NOT hardware.

Basic skydiving skills would be mandated, know how to pack your own shit, know how to spot, land in the peas and sit up when ya dump the reserve...

If ya can't hang with the real dogs head on over to Nerf world where they powder your butt every diaper change!

As long as we don;t have to go back to rigs the size of a Karmann Ghia , I'm game....


Whatever ya can stuff a Para-Plane and a Tri-con into...

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[pchapman 279]

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and would like to give a few points to my view as a DZO! First I will say that we do require AAD's on all jumpers and do so for the simple reason that AAD's work and save many more lives than harm.

Just my opinion, not about your DZ, but in general for DZO's making AAD's mandatory:

To me it smacks of a DZO trying to reduce his liability by forcing people to buy expensive gear. He forces his jumpers to sign waivers, showing that he has very limited responsibilities to them -- yet then expects them to spend a pile of money to keep him safe. If it is all about saving lives, why not open a restaurant instead of a DZ?

And of those 22 saves, 12 were students or tandem, not really relevant to the issue of mandatory AAD's for licensed jumpers. Of the rest, some may have been in a real bind through not a lot of fault of their own, while others were just plain stupid. We might differ on whether people making big mistakes should bounce on your DZ. I just don't want to be forced to buy expensive gear because someone else was stupid.

(FWIW, I do have a Cypres 2 on my main rig, but no AADs on my spare/accuracy/CRW/specialty rigs.)

[Andy9o8 2]

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To me it smacks of a DZO trying to reduce his liability by forcing people to buy expensive gear. He forces his jumpers to sign waivers, showing that he has very limited responsibilities to them -- yet then expects them to spend a pile of money to keep him safe. If it is all about saving lives, why not open a restaurant instead of a DZ?

With all due respect, Peter, you act as if it's unethical for DZOs to do everything they can to reduce their potential legal liability. Customers can vote with their wallets and go elsewhere if that bothers them so much. But don't forget that it's difficult-to-impossible for DZs to get meaningful, affordable liability insurance in the US. One serious claim can wipe them out and shut them down, and fast. So that forces the DZOs to compensate for that lack of coverage by insulating themselves in other ways: equipment requirements, no hook-turn rules, etc. If they couldn't do that - just like, for example, if they didn't have tandems to generate cash - many of them simply would not be in the DZ business at all, which would mean fewer DZs for us.

[mjosparky 4]

To me it smacks of a DZO trying to reduce his liability by forcing people to buy expensive gear.

He is not forcing anyone to buy expensive gear. What he is saying is you want to jump at my DZ you must have the following equipment, main, reserve, container and AAD, bla, bla, bla. Most of witch is required by law. And it is as much for his protection as yours. I made most of my jumps without an AAD and would like the option to make my own choice but when playing in someone else’s sandbox I give up that option.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[airtwardo 7]

...but when playing in someone else’s sandbox I give up that option.

Sparky

I don't however, give up the option to bitch about it!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[peanut4040 0]

My bad lifetitan. I guess I did get a little angry. I humbily apologise.

I only wanted to know where you were and who you are, so that I could check out what kind of skydiver you are.

Obviously, you enjoy using your AAD. Good for you. Whatever you do, never ever forget that you have one. And remember its still your choice to use one.

Its a good day to LIVE, why puck up a good thing.

There is no reply in aad section for. " hell no i would not put an AAD on my back"

[mjosparky 4]

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...but when playing in someone else’s sandbox I give up that option.

Sparky

I don't however, give up the option to bitch about it!

Of course not, that would be so wrong.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[skydivekc 0]

This info was only one manf. of AAD's and just so you know it was not Airtec's info. I would guess the Cypress unit to be the most widely used unit so who knows what there numbers are.

While I totally understand the issue is not so much what is safer as is telling someone or mandating use of such units to rub people wrong, however its what I feel is best for my company and specific situation. I realize this limits some that would otherwise spend money and support my DZ. I view it as another form of risk management.

[peanut4040 0]

I don't however, give up the option to bitch about it!


Chuckles,, A-FREAKING MENNNNN

Its a good day to LIVE, why puck up a good thing.

There is no reply in aad section for. " hell no i would not put an AAD on my back"

[skypuppy 1]

I have personally witnesses two saves that would have been fatal accidents without such device.
_________________________________________________
Were those two students or tandems that have aads mandated already? or so-called experienced jumpers?

I take the stats from the manufacturers with a grain of salt, after all, its a marketing ploy for them (and for dzs that mandate them). But I have to wonder how many of those 'saves' resulted in two-outs, maybe even injuries, because the guy dumped a little low.... And how many would the guy have opened anyways. Always got to remember just because its in 'pro' mode doesn't mean it's an experienced jumper, sometimes freefall students might use pro modes....

So if it was students and tandems, it's already mandated. Why require it of people who know what they're doing? Not to say you can't suggest it -- but why mandate it?

'If' I was made to use an aad in order to jump and it killed me, I'd be pretty pissed off.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[skypuppy 1]

With all due respect, Peter, you act as if it's unethical for DZOs to do everything they can to reduce their potential legal liability. Customers can vote with their wallets and go elsewhere if that bothers them so much.
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I might agree with you EXCEPT in several cases I know the dzo's then approach their national association and attempt to get the association to force through rules mandating the aads they want IN ORDER TO REMOVE THE JUMPER'S RIGHT TO JUMP WITHOUT AN AAD AT ANOTHER DZ DOWN THE ROAD. And in some cases they may very well get away with it because the national associations are set up so that the voting members are, by default, the dropzones, and committee and board members are often dzos, also by default. So the fun/experienced jumper often can have very little input into the argument until it is too late.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[skypuppy 1]

This info was only one manf. of AAD's and just so you know it was not Airtec's info. I would guess the Cypress unit to be the most widely used unit so who knows what there numbers are.

While I totally understand the issue is not so much what is safer as is telling someone or mandating use of such units to rub people wrong, however its what I feel is best for my company and specific situation. I realize this limits some that would otherwise spend money and support my DZ. I view it as another form of risk management.
________________________________________________
In the last year I have looked over the data from the three major manufacturers and generally from what I remember the percentages were about the same -- in other words, almost half students or tandems, a large percentage being phases that were known to be problematical, such as transitioning from student gear, or borrowed equipment, and camera flyers, and the last 40% or so was so-called 'experienced' jumpers. Again, I say that probably a percentage of these were already dumping and the aad beat them to it, or maybe they had a two-out ....

So the number of 'saves' added by making aads mandatory to everyone is not a lot more than them being mandatory for students, tandems, camera flyers, and maybe dropzone gear for people transitioning before they get to jump their own new gear. That said, many experienced people want to jump an aad anyways, so some of them probably would have already been wearing aads anyways without them being made mandatory. So now you're down to a pretty low percentage of incidents....

Making people run out and buy aads they don't want when they may have multiple rigs (a crw rig, an accuracy rig, another extra rig, vintage gear) is ludicrous.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[airtwardo 7]

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I have personally witnesses two saves that would have been fatal accidents without such device.
_________________________________________________
Were those two students or tandems that have aads mandated already? or so-called experienced jumpers?

I take the stats from the manufacturers with a grain of salt, after all, its a marketing ploy for them (and for dzs that mandate them). But I have to wonder how many of those 'saves' resulted in two-outs, maybe even injuries, because the guy dumped a little low.... And how many would the guy have opened anyways. Always got to remember just because its in 'pro' mode doesn't mean it's an experienced jumper, sometimes freefall students might use pro modes....

So if it was students and tandems, it's already mandated. Why require it of people who know what they're doing? Not to say you can't suggest it -- but why mandate it?

'If' I was made to use an aad in order to jump and it killed me, I'd be pretty pissed off.

I see where of the 18 U.S. fatalities this year, 75% were under open functioning canopies.

~ SEVENTY FIVE PERCENT! ~


I think if a DZO/USPA honestly wants to make any dropzone a safer place...statistically speaking, mandatory AOD's shouldn't be at the top of the list.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[piisfish 140]

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Why require it of people who know what they're doing? Not to say you can't suggest it -- but why mandate it?

in the same order of devil's advocating, why mandate a repack cycle ? why mandate TSO'd rigs ? etc etc etc ....

On the other hand, why install a non certificated piece of equipment to related it directly with certificated equipemt ?

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[Nutz 0]

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With all due respect, Peter, you act as if it's unethical for DZOs to do everything they can to reduce their potential legal liability. Customers can vote with their wallets and go elsewhere if that bothers them so much.
_______________________________________________
I might agree with you EXCEPT in several cases I know the dzo's then approach their national association and attempt to get the association to force through rules mandating the aads they want IN ORDER TO REMOVE THE JUMPER'S RIGHT TO JUMP WITHOUT AN AAD AT ANOTHER DZ DOWN THE ROAD. And in some cases they may very well get away with it because the national associations are set up so that the voting members are, by default, the dropzones, and committee and board members are often dzos, also by default. So the fun/experienced jumper often can have very little input into the argument until it is too late.

Funny you should mention that. I have not talked to either one of them but I heard that Mike and Hans are thinking about this as well.

Edit: Maybe it was Mike and Trey, or someone else.

"Don't! Get! Eliminated!"

[timmyfitz 0]

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I see where of the 18 U.S. fatalities this year, 75% were under open functioning canopies.

~ SEVENTY FIVE PERCENT! ~


I think if a DZO/USPA honestly wants to make any dropzone a safer place...statistically speaking, mandatory AOD's shouldn't be at the top of the list.

Unfortunately listing a percentage does not tell the true story. Overall fatalities were down but landing accidents remained about the same. By using a percentage instead of an actual number it may appear as there was a huge spike in landing accidents. But that just isn't true.

I'm not saying that it shouldn't be the objective to reduce landing fatalities. Just trying to be honest about the numbers.

[skypuppy 1]

in the same order of devil's advocating, why mandate a repack cycle ? why mandate TSO'd rigs ? etc etc etc ....
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Well, actually here in Canada we don't mandate TSO'd rigs, don't know about Europe.... As far as repack cycles, yes, but that is based on the materials reserves and containers used to be made of, and they vary as well between countries and have been relaxed in recent years.

Mandatory aads for all seem to be seen by some national organizations as a cheap (to them) pr symbol that really adds very little extra safety for experienced jumpers who might choose not to wear them (don't forget, we're NOT saying if you want one you can;t have it), while baffling the gov't with often meaningless good feelings....

After all, in the cases where they're most needed (student jumpers) in most cases they're already mandatory....

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[Southern_Man 0]

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I see where of the 18 U.S. fatalities this year, 75% were under open functioning canopies.

~ SEVENTY FIVE PERCENT! ~


I think if a DZO/USPA honestly wants to make any dropzone a safer place...statistically speaking, mandatory AOD's shouldn't be at the top of the list.

Right, so you are saying those DZO's need to ban open, functioning canopies? Automatic 75% reduction in fatalities.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[billvon 3,058]

>To me it smacks of a DZO trying to reduce his liability by forcing people
>to buy expensive gear.

Well, more like "he's trying to reduce liability by keeping people from dying." By far the best way to reduce your liability associated with fatalities is to not have fatalities.

>If it is all about saving lives, why not open a restaurant instead of a DZ?

If you want a cheap sport, why not bowl instead of go to a DZ? (question is just as dumb)

>We might differ on whether people making big mistakes should bounce
>on your DZ.

Right, and that's fine. Since it's his DZ he gets to make the call.

> I just don't want to be forced to buy expensive gear because someone
>else was stupid.

You're already forced to buy a reserve just because some people can't pack. The situation with AAD's is better, though - if you don't like it you can drive to another DZ. No one will force you to jump with an AAD.

[pchapman 279]

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The situation with AAD's is better, though - if you don't like it you can drive to another DZ.

Oh, that works now in many places in the US & Canada. But there's that thin end of the wedge thing -- in some places in the world you have to drive to a whole new country to get away from the mandatory AAD rules. And the situation is getting worse all the time.

The DZO's can make their rules, and I can fight them. Both are legal.

[JohnMitchell 16]

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I see where of the 18 U.S. fatalities this year, 75% were under open functioning canopies.

~ SEVENTY FIVE PERCENT! ~


I think if a DZO/USPA honestly wants to make any dropzone a safer place...statistically speaking, mandatory AOD's shouldn't be at the top of the list.

It's those AAD's that are keeping the freefall impact deaths down. Otherwise, I'd say we'd be looking at 40+ fatalities, many of them students, just like it was in the "good old days". I know you remember when students were about half of the fatalities and people you knew burned in with no canopy out. I have at least one friend saved by an AAD, many more who probably would have been.

Now I do agree that the high speed, highly maneuverable canopies we have today are one of the biggest causal factors with the increase of people dying under fully opened canopies. Our sport would be much safer if these had never been invented. But you can't put the genie back in the bottle. I'm hoping our efforts at education can reduce those accidents in the future.

[skypuppy 1]

It's those AAD's that are keeping the freefall impact deaths down. Otherwise, I'd say we'd be looking at 40+ fatalities, many of them students, just like it was in the "good old days". I know you remember when students were about half of the fatalities and people you knew burned in with no canopy out. I have at least one friend saved by an AAD, many more who probably would have been.
_________________________________________________

And no one is saying that students should be allowed to go back to the days when they didn't wear aads. We're not even saying experienced skydivers shouldn't be allowed to wear aads, or that we won't jump with experienced people that wear aads....

All we're saying is that as experienced jumpers, we shouldn't be FORCED to wear aads on our own personal rigs if we don't want to....

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[skypuppy 1]

You're already forced to buy a reserve just because some people can't pack. The situation with AAD's is better, though - if you don't like it you can drive to another DZ. No one will force you to jump with an AAD.
__________________________________________________

Again, this statement isn't necessarily true. At least in Canada I know there are blocks of dzo's who have been trying to get mandatory aads made a BSR for all cspa, specifically to take away the choice skydivers have of being able to go to other dz's who don't mandate them to be able to jump. Unfortunately, the way cspa is set up, most cspa members by default end up as a member of their school or dz group, and it is these dz groups that are the VOTING MEMBERS of cspa and try to set policy.

Some of these dzos have direct competition that they believe they lose jumpers because the nearby dzs are less strict, and their response is to attempt to take freedom away from all of us.

It is even alleged that the recent changes in Transport Canada's rules pertaining to parachuting schools and aircraft was in large part brought about by one school owner who thought it would be more of a burden to his competition then to him, and lobbied for it. And so we now have new rules nationally that are a burden on everyone....

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone