Letter from the tandem manufactors over underage tandems

[MagnanimousAnt 0]

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Many Kids at age 12 are very capable...

Disagree. I think 18 is a very reasonable age boundary after which most individuals would have the mental maturity to appropriately assess the risks versus the rewards of skydiving.

[piisfish 140]

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What are the rules in your country as to ratings to be held, in other words are you required to have a MFG's rating that could be revoked? If not then what can they really do to you?

Here it is a global tandem rating, not manufacturer related. But in case of incident the insurance will easily find out the manufacturer restriction

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[stratostar 5]

Then I guess you better comply or risk getting screwed in a court of law?

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[skyrider 0]

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Many Kids at age 12 are very capable...

Disagree. I think 18 is a very reasonable age boundary after which most individuals would have the mental maturity to appropriately assess the risks versus the rewards of skydiving.

Maybe "some" , depends on how gaurded a life they lead...Mine, (my best example) has been an active athlete his whole life, he competed at the world level this year in freeridng , at age 16 , with average age of his competitors being 25 ..."He" is more than capable of skydiving safely.... to hold back all, because of a few...sucks......JMO

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

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Many Kids at age 12 are very capable...

Disagree. I think 18 is a very reasonable age boundary after which most individuals would have the mental maturity to appropriately assess the risks versus the rewards of skydiving.

Maybe "some" , depends on how gaurded a life they lead...Mine, (my best example) has been an active athlete his whole life, he competed at the world level this year in freeridng , at age 16 , with average age of his competitors being 25 ..."He" is more than capable of skydiving safely.... to hold back all, because of a few...sucks......JMO

More like hold back a few because most aren't capable. There are a lot of 18 yr olds who aren't mature enough.

I'd say your son is a pretty rare example. How many kids are skilled enough to compete against adult experts?

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[skyrider 0]

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Many Kids at age 12 are very capable...

Disagree. I think 18 is a very reasonable age boundary after which most individuals would have the mental maturity to appropriately assess the risks versus the rewards of skydiving.

Maybe "some" , depends on how gaurded a life they lead...Mine, (my best example) has been an active athlete his whole life, he competed at the world level this year in freeridng , at age 16 , with average age of his competitors being 25 ..."He" is more than capable of skydiving safely.... to hold back all, because of a few...sucks......JMO

More like hold back a few because most aren't capable. There are a lot of 18 yr olds who aren't mature enough.

I'd say your son is a pretty rare example. How many kids are skilled enough to compete against adult experts?

In this case? One!
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v400/onekick/Beach/?action=view&current=redbull.jpg

But , James Lane comes to mind, he was competing at the world level by age 18..

which brings us back to the problem is waivers are not held to the fact of what they should be, once that waiver is signed, the signing adult is responciable, not other parties!

I'm not blaming the tandem manufactuors , I am blaming the court systems...which I don;t think will change soon!

[matthewcline 0]

I think for that to work Far Part 105.45 will have to be re-written again.

It was discussed briefly in the now locked thread in the Instructors Forum.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[Para5-0 0]

I just saw this for the first time. I am curious about your thoughts. I didnt see this one posted but I may have missed it if so sorry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lf2DZhIGB-Y

Rig looks like a Vector 2

[ozzy13 0]

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I just saw this for the first time. I am curious about your thoughts. I didnt see this one posted but I may have missed it if so sorry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lf2DZhIGB-Y

Rig looks like a Vector 2

Just Wrong!!!

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

[skypuppy 1]

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Many Kids at age 12 are very capable...

Disagree. I think 18 is a very reasonable age boundary after which most individuals would have the mental maturity to appropriately assess the risks versus the rewards of skydiving.

Maybe "some" , depends on how gaurded a life they lead...Mine, (my best example) has been an active athlete his whole life, he competed at the world level this year in freeridng , at age 16 , with average age of his competitors being 25 ..."He" is more than capable of skydiving safely.... to hold back all, because of a few...sucks......JMO

More like hold back a few because most aren't capable. There are a lot of 18 yr olds who aren't mature enough.

I'd say your son is a pretty rare example. How many kids are skilled enough to compete against adult experts?

In this case? One!
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v400/onekick/Beach/?action=view&current=redbull.jpg

But , James Lane comes to mind, he was competing at the world level by age 18..

which brings us back to the problem is waivers are not held to the fact of what they should be, once that waiver is signed, the signing adult is responciable, not other parties!

I'm not blaming the tandem manufactuors , I am blaming the court systems...which I don;t think will change soon!

_______________________________________________

3 members of Canada's national 4 way team started underage. Most started skydiving solo at 14, but did tandems at ages as young as 5 or 6, I believe.... And had many hours of tunnel time by the time they started soloing. Benoit only had a couple of hundred jumps when he graduated onto the 4-way team and has been placing 4th or 5th at world meets for a couple of years.... I don't believe their average went down at all when Benoit replaced another more experienced member, despite his youth and low number of jumps, because of the focus and tunnel time.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[GreenLight 7]

I don't see the difference between a child hitting a tree at 60mph while skiing and hitting the ground at 100 while skydiving. EIther way the child is just as dead so if you think your kid can handle it I believe it is up to you the parent and not some guiding light agency. But in all fairness if we allow the sue happy cock suckers out there in wuffo land to sue our manufacturers out of business, then who is gonna make our toys? So I think it's a good idea if it helps keep our manufacturers in business. Maybe you should take the kid down to Mexico Gypsy... Looks like a beautiful place to skydive to me.

Green Light
"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."
"Your statement answered your question."

[Andy9o8 2]

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I don't see the difference between a child hitting a tree at 60mph while skiing and hitting the ground at 100 while skydiving.

The difference is not in how dead they are, the difference is in the inherent risk of death, and the ability, or lack of ability, to fully appreciate that skydiving has an enhanced risk of death that's greater than almost any other activity.

If the age of contract everywhere in the US was, say, 15 or 16 instead of 18 (or higher) as it is now, I'd be all in favor of letting 15 or 16 year old kids skydive. Below about age 15, I'd question whether the average kid has the adequate life experience and judgmental development to make a truly informed risk-vs-reward assessment re: skydiving in particular.

[BMFin 0]

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skydiving has an enhanced risk of death that's greater than almost any other activity.

How did you come to this conclusion ?

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If the age of contract everywhere in the US was, say, 15 or 16 instead of 18 (or higher) as it is now,

Are you saying there is a specific minimum age for a contract in the US ? This may be a bit off topic, but how do you see everyday life contracts such as a kid going to a grocery store to buy some milk ?

Basicly, when the kid hands out the money, there is a contract between the kid and the grocery store. Do you think this contract is null and void ?

[normiss 798]

Since when do we sign a legal document for milk???

[BMFin 0]

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Since when do we sign a legal document for milk???

Exactly, thats my point !

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

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skydiving has an enhanced risk of death that's greater than almost any other activity.

How did you come to this conclusion ?

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If the age of contract everywhere in the US was, say, 15 or 16 instead of 18 (or higher) as it is now,

Are you saying there is a specific minimum age for a contract in the US ? This may be a bit off topic, but how do you see everyday life contracts such as a kid going to a grocery store to buy some milk ?

Basicly, when the kid hands out the money, there is a contract between the kid and the grocery store. Do you think this contract is null and void ?

Because there isn't anything but full freefall.
And the old cliche "You are dead unless you pull" is really true.
You can put a skier on a "bunny hill" where they can't go fast. You can put restrictors on motors so a go-kart or motorcycle can't go as fast.

You can put more pads on the floor for gymnasts.

But there is nothing you can do to make skydiving "safer".

And yes, there is a minimum legal age to sign a legally binding agreement (contract).
You can't be legally bound to an agreement until you reach 18 in the US. Most countries have an "age of majority" that has similar restrtictons. The age just differs in different countries.

What contracts do you sign when you buy a litre of milk? It's a bit more involved for a house or a car (or the loans involved in their purchase) or other major purchase.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[normiss 798]

Then you'd agree that since a minor is not able to enter into a legally binding contract nor waive rights to sue that they don't yet have as minors, that signing a contract and/or waiver to skydive would not be legally binding and would therefore put skydiving as a whole at great legal risk.
I'm thankful we agree.

[BMFin 0]

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What contracts do you sign when you buy a litre of milk? It's a bit more involved for a house or a car (or the loans involved in their purchase) or other major purchase.

Well, I was moreless asking this question from Andy since he has a law degree. As a lawyer Andy most likely understands my question.

There are many actions in everyday life the general public doesnt see as contracts, but anyone who understands the basics in contract law will know better. Buying milk from a shop is a contract. It is a sales contract.

[Andy9o8 2]

Wolfriverjoe's post #66 is the correct answer, as to all points.

[tonyhays 86]

Horrid video, both handcam and outside vid....

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”

[stratostar 5]

yes both the video angles suck, no doubt, while I don't speak the native word down there, it would seem to me, based on what little we could see of the kids face, that he was not enjoying the ride and looked a tad freaked out, but it's kind of hard to say for sure because the video angles suck...

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[BMFin 0]

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Wolfriverjoe's post #66 is the correct answer, as to all points.

As a grad student in law school, for the sake of your clients I hope in reality you know better and your just being provocative..

[normiss 798]

I object.

[Para5-0 0]

When I first watched it, for some reason I felt bad for the kid. I say that in all seriousness. I think he had no idea what he was being exposed to or was going to happen. Maybe I am in the minority on this one, but it just doesnt seem all that fair. In fact it seems like the adults are doing it for themselves moreso then for the kid. I just dont get it. My kids are 12,11,6 and the thought of taking my 6 year old just doesnt compute in my head. In fact I think it would be just plain wrong. The two older sisters would shit there pants, and they have both told me they want to go. In fact begged me. I will not even entertain the thought.
Does that make me an ass? Regardless, I feel good about the decision; to have them wait until 18.

[stratostar 5]

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I think he had no idea what he was being exposed to or was going to happen. Maybe I am in the minority on this one, but it just doesnt seem all that fair. In fact it seems like the adults are doing it for themselves moreso then for the kid.

Here we agree.

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My kids are 12,11,6 and the thought of taking my 6 year old just doesnt compute in my head. In fact I think it would be just plain wrong.

Agreed again.

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The two older sisters would shit there pants, and they have both told me they want to go. In fact begged me. I will not even entertain the thought.
Does that make me an ass? Regardless, I feel good about the decision; to have them wait until 18.

That is all good, however this is where we don't agree 100%. I totally respect your rights as a dad to refrain from allowing your child to not partake in this high risk sport and you have every right to do so.... What I don't agree on here is USPA or MFG telling me I can't take my 14,15,16 year old should I choose to allow them to do so, I tend to side with the FAA's point of view in regards to solo sailplane flights by 14 year old's, that dose not mean I think ALL 14,15,16 year old's should make a skydive.

After all a lot of high profile with in USPA and MFG's has taken part in the very same shit they wish to bust out ass on for doing.... pretty hypocritical to say the least.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo