Ron 10 #1 December 23, 2003 #1 Realizing that you don't know shit, and probley never will. No matter how many jumps you have, you don't know it all, and never will. If you approach skydiving as a newbie you will be open to the lesson. If you think you know it all, you will lose the lesson. As soon as I think I know what I am doing....I try to freefly. I have 3,000 jumps, and most that know me know me know I can turn 4way pretty well (16.5 avg). And I know how to swoop pretty good. But I know jack shit about freeflying. So as soon as I start to think I have a clue, I find some guy with 100 total jumps and 90 freefly jumps to make me look stupid. Humility is good. Which leads to lesson #2 #2 Skill in one area does not always transfer to another. You may be a pilot, but I have seen comercial pilots die under a good canopy. I am pretty good at 4way, but I freefly like shit. I can turn points better than a large number of AFF Instructors...But to let me do AFF would be dangerous. I listen to Tandem guys with more tandems than me. Before I started doing video I talked to the video guys... Before I did some freefly I walked up to the freeflyers and asked them if my gear was ok....now I know enough to know if my gear is ok...but since I was doing something new...I went to the subject matter experts for a second opinion. #3 You don't have to like the teacher to learn the lesson You may not like the way the lesson is brought to you... It may be from a person you don't like. (I didn't like my Drill Instructors in Basic, but I learned a lot from them). It may be in a way you don't like it. (You learn a lot from breaking your leg...You may not like the lesson, but you learn a lot.) If you expect all the teachers to sugar coat the lessons, or you will not listen to them...you are gonna lose a lot of lessons (And maybe learn the hard way..... broken leg). The ground does not care how nice you are, or what you meant to do....It will kill the nicest guys along with the assholes if either screws up.... So listen to the teachers even if you don't like the approach #4 As soon as you start to skydive for yourself, and no one else..You make a large step and become a better person. When we start we are all so damn jazzed about this sport that we annoy the hell out of our whuffo friends. Many times we lose them since all we talk about is jumping, and they don't understand and never will. When you stop thinking of yourself as a skydiver....And think of skydiving as something you do, not something you are...You will be one step closer to really understanding it all. And this includes gear selection and type of skydiving... If you buy a canopy because you like it, and not because its cool...you are well on your way. I have a friend that I really respect. Tony Hathaway. He has over 10,000 jumps. He jumps a Spector 120. I tease him about being old and jumping an old guys canopy...but he jumps it because he likes it...not because its cool. I know a guy that had 400 jumps and got a Velocity 106. He was not ready for this canopy, but he though he was. He went up to a friend of mine that is on the US womens team and asked her why she jumped a Stiletto. "You have 2,000 jumps, don't you feel ready for a Velocity?" He does not get it....Jump what you like, not whats cool."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #2 December 23, 2003 Good post Ron! Although I really wish you would have posted it somewhere else besides in Talk Back, since it'll get slamed down a few pages before you know it due to the avalanche of posting here. Once again, very good post.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #3 December 23, 2003 QuoteI have a friend that I really respect. Tony Hathaway. He has over 10,000 jumps. He jumps a Spector 120. I tease him about being old and jumping an old guys canopy...but he jumps it because he likes it...not because its cool. Tony also plays guitar excellently. If you get to be "cool" by doing stuff, I think he's there. He's done most of it. His web page He's a modest guy. He'll never tell ya, so I will. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #4 December 23, 2003 QuoteGood post Ron! Although I really wish you would have posted it somewhere else besides in Talk Back, since it'll get slamed down a few pages before you know it due to the avalanche of posting here. Once again, very good post. I have been booted from General.....I wonder if I should put it in Saftey and training? Greenies? If so can you move it?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Nightingale 0 #5 December 23, 2003 there's a difference between sugar coating and basic politeness. just because you have a message is not an excuse to be rude. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #6 December 23, 2003 Quotethere's a difference between sugar coating and basic politeness. just because you have a message is not an excuse to be rude. I only become rude when the newbies don't listen.... Have you not learned that yet? The ground does not give a shit about "nice"."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #7 December 23, 2003 Quotethere's a difference between sugar coating and basic politeness. just because you have a message is not an excuse to be rude. I have seen people that that is the only way to get their attention, though. Trying to be polite, trying to tell them time and time again that they're headed for danger, that they're making the wrong decisions and they wouldn't listen. Finally reaching a point of saying "dude, you're going to fucking die, if you're lucky you'll only get seriously hurt, eitherway you'll have to tell your 7yr old daughter that you can't hold her because you're in the hospital. Or she'll get to see you put in the grave. Eitherway, if you don't unfuck yourself, that's where you're going." Guess what? That conversation drove the point home to that jumper (finally) and he's taken a lot of steps to listen to those around him and to get more training so he can do the things he's been wanting to do.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 273 #8 December 23, 2003 Quotejust because you have a message is not an excuse to be rude. I don't see anything rude in Ron's post. I see good advice for skydivers of any experience level. You may consider his style rude. Others may consider it direct. It's all about perceptions, which can and do vary from person to person. You don't have to like a person's style, or even like them personally, to learn from them. You can choose not to if you like. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites elfanie 0 #9 December 23, 2003 Quote I have seen people that that is the only way to get their attention, though. then you should get to that point...not start at that point. there is a guy at a DZ (that, for obvious reasons, will remain un-named). He's a really nice guy...he really is. but his delivery sometimes...*sigh* You wouldn't necessarily know that he's as nice as he is because he's so....abrupt? Harsh? He's military..and he takes his job very seriously, as well he should. But...just because you're new and inexperienced doesn't mean you're stupid. means you have yet to learn...and there's a big big difference between "yet to learn" and "stupid". Yet to learn simply means, "Fine..then TEACH ME!" This man has a *tendancy* to treat people like they are stupid....and that rubs some people the wrong way. For me..as a newbie...it made me both want to say, "go screw yourself!" and yet curl up into the fetal position and want to cry. I found him very intimidating and he made me feel very stupid. He could have done the same educating in a way that was less intimidating, less authoratative..and I would have been more receptive to it. This man is brilliant...he made a comment to me that he LOVES that nobody thinks of him as a "skyGod", but the fact is that he's as much of a SkyGod as anyone out there jumping....but sometimes his message delivery is such that it stings and you're too busy licking your wounds in the corner because he just verbally smacked you down to actually listen and want to hear what he has to say. If the drill-seargant routine is the only thing that some people will respond to..then it's understandable if you end up communicating to them in that manner. but for the rest of us...it's counter productive (and not real nice) to start off there. -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #10 December 23, 2003 QuoteIf the drill-seargant routine is the only thing that some people will respond to..then it's understandable if you end up communicating to them in that manner. but for the rest of us...it's counter productive (and not real nice) to start off there. That's for sure. Obviously you've never seen me instruct a student. The instance I just stated was the only instance that I've had to use that tactic. It worked there, though, but that was after many "polite" talks.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites elfanie 0 #11 December 23, 2003 Quote That's for sure. Obviously you've never seen me instruct a student. *blows AggieDave a kiss* I wasn't referring to you. Hope to be able to shake your hand at the boogie. And to make this more on-topic for the forum... more things that I, a newbie who knows better than to give advice on skydiving, beleive in my heart will make you a better skydiver - at least in the beginning... 1. Be afraid. Fear is the acknowledgement that there is danger. If you aren't afraid...then you don't respect that there is danger in the sport. 2. Do everything you can to make this as safe as it can be. Skydiving, in and of itself, carries risk....make it a mission to make it as low-risk as you can. See how low-risk you can make it BEFORE you decide to introduce optional and intentional risk (CRW, swooping, etc...even just downsizing canopies!) 3. Never forget that the ride isn't over until you are walking with your canopy draped over your shoulder back to the packing area. Being under canopy doesn't mean you're done....and coming in for final doesn't mean you're done. Finish what you started... That's my list...humble though it may be. -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lowie 0 #12 December 23, 2003 Our sport started from a military background and I think it is still run a bit like that. I think the military training thing has shown that with students if you give them the brain washing they will get it right - even under duress. Once they are beyond student status then I think you have to reason with people. I have low jump numbers and hence am a skydiving newbie but comparing it with paragliding (in which I have a lot of experience) I know it works. It's not nice but it's effective. Wondering what to do next is not an option in this sport. Well just my opinion anyway. cheers and merry xmas and happy new year Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wildblue 7 #13 December 23, 2003 I really like this line and wanted to post it again QuoteWhen you stop thinking of yourself as a skydiver....And think of skydiving as something you do, not something you are...You will be one step closer to really understanding it all. QuoteIf the drill-seargant routine is the only thing that some people will respond to..then it's understandable if you end up communicating to them in that manner. but for the rest of us...it's counter productive (and not real nice) to start off there. The sign of a good teacher is knowing where to start. Adults learn in a much different way than children, and adult's vary from person to person in what works best for them. For you, someone starting 'harsh' with you is counter-productive. For someone that the 'drill-instructor' method works for, starting warm and fuzzy is counter-productive. A good instructor can read you, knows what motivates you, and knows what buttons to push/approach to take to get the most out of you. Teaching methods also vary depending on the situation and subject matter.it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ChasingBlueSky 0 #14 December 23, 2003 Well said, and not a word I don't agree with._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #15 December 23, 2003 QuoteIf the drill-seargant routine is the only thing that some people will respond to..then it's understandable if you end up communicating to them in that manner. but for the rest of us...it's counter productive (and not real nice) to start off there. But sometimes you over hear the Drill Sergeant when its not directed at you. This is VERY common on here. Just as Nightingales post was not about this thread, but a contiuation of another. Also, sometimes people don't move on after an encounter with the Drill Sergeant, and hold on to the negative vibe...Then that is the only way the will listen to you. Case in point Nightingale is bringing up another post into this one. Quotethen you should get to that point...not start at that point I always start nice...I don't sugar coat it, but then again the ground does not give a crap about how nice you are. See rule #3. Quotejust because you're new and inexperienced doesn't mean you're stupid. You only become stupid when you will not listen and think you know it all. QuoteFor me..as a newbie...it made me both want to say, "go screw yourself!" and yet curl up into the fetal position and want to cry. I found him very intimidating and he made me feel very stupid. He could have done the same educating in a way that was less intimidating, less authoratative..and I would have been more receptive to it. This also may not be HIS fault....You are the one that controls how you react to an event. He is giving the information....You CHOSE to let yourself feel stupid. My Drill Sergeants called me all kinds of names, made comments asking if my Mom had any children that lived....I didn't take that personal. In ZHills a common greating is "Hey ASSHOLE!" Like I said....read rule #3."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #16 December 23, 2003 Quote1. Be afraid. Fear is the acknowledgement that there is danger. If you aren't afraid...then you don't respect that there is danger in the sport Very good...don't pretend that this sport is safe...It's not. Quote2. Do everything you can to make this as safe as it can be. Skydiving, in and of itself, carries risk....make it a mission to make it as low-risk as you can. See how low-risk you can make it BEFORE you decide to introduce optional and intentional risk (CRW, swooping, etc...even just downsizing canopies!) Again good point. You can skydive with safety as a priority and have fun...Skydiving with fun as a priority is not always safe. Quote3. Never forget that the ride isn't over until you are walking with your canopy draped over your shoulder back to the packing area. Being under canopy doesn't mean you're done....and coming in for final doesn't mean you're done. Finish what you started... Good take it a step further...You are not done until you are out of the landing area....I have seen many folks get hurt just walking off the field. You could even go so far to say that you are never done. Why whould this site be so popular if not for learning all the time...(And of course talking about politics and boobies) QuoteThat's my list...humble though it may be and a good one."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Nightingale 0 #17 December 23, 2003 I wasn't referring to this particular post, just in general. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 273 #18 December 23, 2003 QuoteI wasn't referring to this particular post, just in general. You don't have to like a person's style, or even like them personally, to learn from them. You can choose not to if you like. And I mean this in general. The DZO where I learned to skydive was an asshole. It was well known in the area that Al was an asshole, and he proved it to everyone on a semi-regular basis. Seriously - the term "adam henry" was used by a minister in his eulogy at his memorial service. I didn't like him much at times, downright hated him at other times. But I learned so much from that man. Had I not listened to him simply because he was an asshole I would have lost out on a lot of knowledge and history. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites WILDBILLAQR 0 #19 December 23, 2003 The ground does not give a shit about "nice". Three of the nicest people I have ever known are not here today. They all died because of THEIR OWN MISTAKES! None of them were "jump wonders" They were not doing anything above there skill or knowledge levels. I know people who are "jump wonders". I know some of them will not be here one day. Some people have talked to them, and normally they just go to a different DZ. They need someone to be an asshole to them, maybe they'll listen, they probably wont. If one does it would be worth it. Why would they listen to me because of my experience level. Keep up the direct approach. It might save a life!---------------------------------------------- "Thats not smoke, thats BUCKEYE!!" AQR#3,CWR#49 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #20 December 23, 2003 QuoteKeep up the direct approach. It might save a life! Thanks....And its clear you will never see the direct side of me directed at you. You seem to listen. I wish everyone would. Funny thing. There is another thread on here somewhere were a few folks are talking about how ashamed they are when they look back on their old posts...how they thought they knew what they were talking about, but now see how dumb they were. The funnier thing is I think everyone if they were honest would say the same for themselves. I do...."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Blahr 0 #21 December 23, 2003 Quote I don't see anything rude in Ron's post. I see good advice for skydivers of any experience level. You may consider his style rude. Others may consider it direct. It's all about perceptions, which can and do vary from person to person. Amen. I found this to be all good advice. The suggestion that it was rude confused me. I saw no rudeness here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkydiveNFlorida 0 #22 December 23, 2003 Good post, Ron. I will add to this list : Practice what you preach. Sometimes it is easy to give advice and not even hear yourself. I am not referring to one person or one instance, just in general, people should practice what they preach. Angela. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Mad47 0 #23 December 23, 2003 Quote a few folks are talking about how ashamed they are when they look back on their old posts... I think that's a good indication of the progress Thanks for the post. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Mad47 0 #24 December 23, 2003 Last season I was coached by two very experienced and talented people who use absolutely opposite approaches when they teach/explain something. I have to admit that it took me some time to get used to the "bad cop’s" comments comments like "you do not have any ideas what you are doing with your bodies in freefall" or "...and you funneled the exit". At some point I was very close to replying "who the f... are you to talk to me like that? I am not in military anymore" However, with time I realized that I am becoming a better skydiver no matter if I like my coaches tone or not. After all, in most of the cases we are being taught for free so we better f...ing listen! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites quade 4 #25 December 23, 2003 Quote just because you have a message is not an excuse to be rude. Intentional or not, it is a barrier to communication. Instead of the recipient focusing on the message, the person focuses on the feeling. Sometimes this can not be helped because the recipient takes something personally when, in fact, that was never the intention of the person giving the information. I watched this first hand recently when a coach was trying to explain that different skydivers have different bodies and abilities. One of the students took it personally (when this was never the intention) and this created some tension that basically shut down and shut off a lot of good information that could have been past from coach to student. Generally speaking, good instructors know that students have certain needs that must be met before any real learning can be accomplished. Abraham Maslow developed a hierarchy of needs that all instructors and coaches would do well to understand.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 1 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
Ron 10 #4 December 23, 2003 QuoteGood post Ron! Although I really wish you would have posted it somewhere else besides in Talk Back, since it'll get slamed down a few pages before you know it due to the avalanche of posting here. Once again, very good post. I have been booted from General.....I wonder if I should put it in Saftey and training? Greenies? If so can you move it?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #5 December 23, 2003 there's a difference between sugar coating and basic politeness. just because you have a message is not an excuse to be rude. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #6 December 23, 2003 Quotethere's a difference between sugar coating and basic politeness. just because you have a message is not an excuse to be rude. I only become rude when the newbies don't listen.... Have you not learned that yet? The ground does not give a shit about "nice"."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #7 December 23, 2003 Quotethere's a difference between sugar coating and basic politeness. just because you have a message is not an excuse to be rude. I have seen people that that is the only way to get their attention, though. Trying to be polite, trying to tell them time and time again that they're headed for danger, that they're making the wrong decisions and they wouldn't listen. Finally reaching a point of saying "dude, you're going to fucking die, if you're lucky you'll only get seriously hurt, eitherway you'll have to tell your 7yr old daughter that you can't hold her because you're in the hospital. Or she'll get to see you put in the grave. Eitherway, if you don't unfuck yourself, that's where you're going." Guess what? That conversation drove the point home to that jumper (finally) and he's taken a lot of steps to listen to those around him and to get more training so he can do the things he's been wanting to do.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #8 December 23, 2003 Quotejust because you have a message is not an excuse to be rude. I don't see anything rude in Ron's post. I see good advice for skydivers of any experience level. You may consider his style rude. Others may consider it direct. It's all about perceptions, which can and do vary from person to person. You don't have to like a person's style, or even like them personally, to learn from them. You can choose not to if you like. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elfanie 0 #9 December 23, 2003 Quote I have seen people that that is the only way to get their attention, though. then you should get to that point...not start at that point. there is a guy at a DZ (that, for obvious reasons, will remain un-named). He's a really nice guy...he really is. but his delivery sometimes...*sigh* You wouldn't necessarily know that he's as nice as he is because he's so....abrupt? Harsh? He's military..and he takes his job very seriously, as well he should. But...just because you're new and inexperienced doesn't mean you're stupid. means you have yet to learn...and there's a big big difference between "yet to learn" and "stupid". Yet to learn simply means, "Fine..then TEACH ME!" This man has a *tendancy* to treat people like they are stupid....and that rubs some people the wrong way. For me..as a newbie...it made me both want to say, "go screw yourself!" and yet curl up into the fetal position and want to cry. I found him very intimidating and he made me feel very stupid. He could have done the same educating in a way that was less intimidating, less authoratative..and I would have been more receptive to it. This man is brilliant...he made a comment to me that he LOVES that nobody thinks of him as a "skyGod", but the fact is that he's as much of a SkyGod as anyone out there jumping....but sometimes his message delivery is such that it stings and you're too busy licking your wounds in the corner because he just verbally smacked you down to actually listen and want to hear what he has to say. If the drill-seargant routine is the only thing that some people will respond to..then it's understandable if you end up communicating to them in that manner. but for the rest of us...it's counter productive (and not real nice) to start off there. -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #10 December 23, 2003 QuoteIf the drill-seargant routine is the only thing that some people will respond to..then it's understandable if you end up communicating to them in that manner. but for the rest of us...it's counter productive (and not real nice) to start off there. That's for sure. Obviously you've never seen me instruct a student. The instance I just stated was the only instance that I've had to use that tactic. It worked there, though, but that was after many "polite" talks.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elfanie 0 #11 December 23, 2003 Quote That's for sure. Obviously you've never seen me instruct a student. *blows AggieDave a kiss* I wasn't referring to you. Hope to be able to shake your hand at the boogie. And to make this more on-topic for the forum... more things that I, a newbie who knows better than to give advice on skydiving, beleive in my heart will make you a better skydiver - at least in the beginning... 1. Be afraid. Fear is the acknowledgement that there is danger. If you aren't afraid...then you don't respect that there is danger in the sport. 2. Do everything you can to make this as safe as it can be. Skydiving, in and of itself, carries risk....make it a mission to make it as low-risk as you can. See how low-risk you can make it BEFORE you decide to introduce optional and intentional risk (CRW, swooping, etc...even just downsizing canopies!) 3. Never forget that the ride isn't over until you are walking with your canopy draped over your shoulder back to the packing area. Being under canopy doesn't mean you're done....and coming in for final doesn't mean you're done. Finish what you started... That's my list...humble though it may be. -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lowie 0 #12 December 23, 2003 Our sport started from a military background and I think it is still run a bit like that. I think the military training thing has shown that with students if you give them the brain washing they will get it right - even under duress. Once they are beyond student status then I think you have to reason with people. I have low jump numbers and hence am a skydiving newbie but comparing it with paragliding (in which I have a lot of experience) I know it works. It's not nice but it's effective. Wondering what to do next is not an option in this sport. Well just my opinion anyway. cheers and merry xmas and happy new year Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildblue 7 #13 December 23, 2003 I really like this line and wanted to post it again QuoteWhen you stop thinking of yourself as a skydiver....And think of skydiving as something you do, not something you are...You will be one step closer to really understanding it all. QuoteIf the drill-seargant routine is the only thing that some people will respond to..then it's understandable if you end up communicating to them in that manner. but for the rest of us...it's counter productive (and not real nice) to start off there. The sign of a good teacher is knowing where to start. Adults learn in a much different way than children, and adult's vary from person to person in what works best for them. For you, someone starting 'harsh' with you is counter-productive. For someone that the 'drill-instructor' method works for, starting warm and fuzzy is counter-productive. A good instructor can read you, knows what motivates you, and knows what buttons to push/approach to take to get the most out of you. Teaching methods also vary depending on the situation and subject matter.it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #14 December 23, 2003 Well said, and not a word I don't agree with._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #15 December 23, 2003 QuoteIf the drill-seargant routine is the only thing that some people will respond to..then it's understandable if you end up communicating to them in that manner. but for the rest of us...it's counter productive (and not real nice) to start off there. But sometimes you over hear the Drill Sergeant when its not directed at you. This is VERY common on here. Just as Nightingales post was not about this thread, but a contiuation of another. Also, sometimes people don't move on after an encounter with the Drill Sergeant, and hold on to the negative vibe...Then that is the only way the will listen to you. Case in point Nightingale is bringing up another post into this one. Quotethen you should get to that point...not start at that point I always start nice...I don't sugar coat it, but then again the ground does not give a crap about how nice you are. See rule #3. Quotejust because you're new and inexperienced doesn't mean you're stupid. You only become stupid when you will not listen and think you know it all. QuoteFor me..as a newbie...it made me both want to say, "go screw yourself!" and yet curl up into the fetal position and want to cry. I found him very intimidating and he made me feel very stupid. He could have done the same educating in a way that was less intimidating, less authoratative..and I would have been more receptive to it. This also may not be HIS fault....You are the one that controls how you react to an event. He is giving the information....You CHOSE to let yourself feel stupid. My Drill Sergeants called me all kinds of names, made comments asking if my Mom had any children that lived....I didn't take that personal. In ZHills a common greating is "Hey ASSHOLE!" Like I said....read rule #3."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #16 December 23, 2003 Quote1. Be afraid. Fear is the acknowledgement that there is danger. If you aren't afraid...then you don't respect that there is danger in the sport Very good...don't pretend that this sport is safe...It's not. Quote2. Do everything you can to make this as safe as it can be. Skydiving, in and of itself, carries risk....make it a mission to make it as low-risk as you can. See how low-risk you can make it BEFORE you decide to introduce optional and intentional risk (CRW, swooping, etc...even just downsizing canopies!) Again good point. You can skydive with safety as a priority and have fun...Skydiving with fun as a priority is not always safe. Quote3. Never forget that the ride isn't over until you are walking with your canopy draped over your shoulder back to the packing area. Being under canopy doesn't mean you're done....and coming in for final doesn't mean you're done. Finish what you started... Good take it a step further...You are not done until you are out of the landing area....I have seen many folks get hurt just walking off the field. You could even go so far to say that you are never done. Why whould this site be so popular if not for learning all the time...(And of course talking about politics and boobies) QuoteThat's my list...humble though it may be and a good one."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #17 December 23, 2003 I wasn't referring to this particular post, just in general. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #18 December 23, 2003 QuoteI wasn't referring to this particular post, just in general. You don't have to like a person's style, or even like them personally, to learn from them. You can choose not to if you like. And I mean this in general. The DZO where I learned to skydive was an asshole. It was well known in the area that Al was an asshole, and he proved it to everyone on a semi-regular basis. Seriously - the term "adam henry" was used by a minister in his eulogy at his memorial service. I didn't like him much at times, downright hated him at other times. But I learned so much from that man. Had I not listened to him simply because he was an asshole I would have lost out on a lot of knowledge and history. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WILDBILLAQR 0 #19 December 23, 2003 The ground does not give a shit about "nice". Three of the nicest people I have ever known are not here today. They all died because of THEIR OWN MISTAKES! None of them were "jump wonders" They were not doing anything above there skill or knowledge levels. I know people who are "jump wonders". I know some of them will not be here one day. Some people have talked to them, and normally they just go to a different DZ. They need someone to be an asshole to them, maybe they'll listen, they probably wont. If one does it would be worth it. Why would they listen to me because of my experience level. Keep up the direct approach. It might save a life!---------------------------------------------- "Thats not smoke, thats BUCKEYE!!" AQR#3,CWR#49 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #20 December 23, 2003 QuoteKeep up the direct approach. It might save a life! Thanks....And its clear you will never see the direct side of me directed at you. You seem to listen. I wish everyone would. Funny thing. There is another thread on here somewhere were a few folks are talking about how ashamed they are when they look back on their old posts...how they thought they knew what they were talking about, but now see how dumb they were. The funnier thing is I think everyone if they were honest would say the same for themselves. I do...."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Blahr 0 #21 December 23, 2003 Quote I don't see anything rude in Ron's post. I see good advice for skydivers of any experience level. You may consider his style rude. Others may consider it direct. It's all about perceptions, which can and do vary from person to person. Amen. I found this to be all good advice. The suggestion that it was rude confused me. I saw no rudeness here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveNFlorida 0 #22 December 23, 2003 Good post, Ron. I will add to this list : Practice what you preach. Sometimes it is easy to give advice and not even hear yourself. I am not referring to one person or one instance, just in general, people should practice what they preach. Angela. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mad47 0 #23 December 23, 2003 Quote a few folks are talking about how ashamed they are when they look back on their old posts... I think that's a good indication of the progress Thanks for the post. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mad47 0 #24 December 23, 2003 Last season I was coached by two very experienced and talented people who use absolutely opposite approaches when they teach/explain something. I have to admit that it took me some time to get used to the "bad cop’s" comments comments like "you do not have any ideas what you are doing with your bodies in freefall" or "...and you funneled the exit". At some point I was very close to replying "who the f... are you to talk to me like that? I am not in military anymore" However, with time I realized that I am becoming a better skydiver no matter if I like my coaches tone or not. After all, in most of the cases we are being taught for free so we better f...ing listen! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #25 December 23, 2003 Quote just because you have a message is not an excuse to be rude. Intentional or not, it is a barrier to communication. Instead of the recipient focusing on the message, the person focuses on the feeling. Sometimes this can not be helped because the recipient takes something personally when, in fact, that was never the intention of the person giving the information. I watched this first hand recently when a coach was trying to explain that different skydivers have different bodies and abilities. One of the students took it personally (when this was never the intention) and this created some tension that basically shut down and shut off a lot of good information that could have been past from coach to student. Generally speaking, good instructors know that students have certain needs that must be met before any real learning can be accomplished. Abraham Maslow developed a hierarchy of needs that all instructors and coaches would do well to understand.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
