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rhys 0
QuoteYes, they do. But it doesn't matter. They also cause safety problems with distraction,
Examples please?
I have seen a tandem have a cypres fire because they were too busy geeking the camera guy.
Seems this thead is a venting for disgruntled camera guys.
Just ask the customers what they prefer.
You will find the usual mixed results.
There would have been over a million handicams done now with around 100,000 tandems per year in NZ and another 100,000 in aus. let alone the rest of the world.
How many incidents have occured?
I know somone that had their altimeter entangled in their lines on a tandem too, shall we dissaprove of altis now too?
People die skydiving as it is dangerous, it is also unecessary to jump from a plane, maybe we should stop skydiving also?
Really people you are all about 10 years too late and the statistics will tell you what is what and what is not.
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix
Para5-0 0
Do you agree that a new Tndem Instructor 25 jumps and off probation should be allowed to perform H/C tandem jumps without concern? Based on your Stats?
riggerrob 643
QuoteDo you agree that a new Tndem Instructor 25 jumps and off probation should be allowed to perform H/C tandem jumps without concern? Based on your Stats?
....................................................................
Go read the Australian Parachute Federation's guidelines.
Para5-0 0
Hey Rob,
I have but to help the conversation here:
Handcam Jumps
TOM 7.4 states
•minimum experience of 100 tandem jumps
•Recommendation by CI, and logbook endorsement
•CI approval of camera and mount
•Undergo a course of instruction by DZSO
•One jump with a licensed jumper before taking a Tandem Student
•Audible altimeter is mandatory for Tandem Instructors with less than 50 Hand Cam Tandem jumps
•Audible altimeter is mandatory for Tandem Instructors using a visual altimeter located other than on the camera hand.
Be aware that a handcam puts your left hand into the student’s reach and more than one TM has been surprised by the student’s ability to hang on, despite being warned not to. If you do handcam, keep your other arm (the one you are going to open the parachute with) well clear of the student.
I have but to help the conversation here:
Handcam Jumps
TOM 7.4 states
•minimum experience of 100 tandem jumps
•Recommendation by CI, and logbook endorsement
•CI approval of camera and mount
•Undergo a course of instruction by DZSO
•One jump with a licensed jumper before taking a Tandem Student
•Audible altimeter is mandatory for Tandem Instructors with less than 50 Hand Cam Tandem jumps
•Audible altimeter is mandatory for Tandem Instructors using a visual altimeter located other than on the camera hand.
Be aware that a handcam puts your left hand into the student’s reach and more than one TM has been surprised by the student’s ability to hang on, despite being warned not to. If you do handcam, keep your other arm (the one you are going to open the parachute with) well clear of the student.
Ron 10
QuoteYes, they do. But it doesn't matter. They also cause safety problems with distraction, but again, doesn't really matter. It will make DZO's and TM's more money, and that's really all they will see.
Tandems themselves cause safety problems, outside video is more dangerous than not having video... Etc.
There has been at least on fatality where an OV guy killed a tandem pax.
Just like most things HC video could be done safely, or it could be done in a dangerous manner.
Some guy that just got his tandem rating slapping one on, not doing handle checks, and trying to video his own chop instead of pulling the reserve.... Bad.
Some guy with 5k tandems, that does his handle checks and uses both hands during a mal... Not bad.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
rhys 0
QuoteDo you agree that a new Tndem Instructor 25 jumps and off probation should be allowed to perform H/C tandem jumps without concern? Based on your Stats?
NO!
I believe the rule was 50 tandems when I did it in Australia. cannot remember exactly. Rules may have changed.
I also believe it depends on the comptence and aptitude of the individual, but for the sake of the masses we have to put an number on it.
There are some that have ratings that should never have got them at all. these individuals ruin the statistics.
I would say 100 tandems to first try it, with the approval of th C.I.
I try to hire TM's with at least 500 tandems.
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix
billvon 3,068
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>Examples please?
A recent incident where the TM admitted later that he was videoing his cutaway instead of getting his hand on his reserve handle.
>Just ask the customers what they prefer.
Like I said, they like handycam, and they will pay for it. That will trump any safety consideration.
>People die skydiving as it is dangerous, it is also unecessary to jump from
>a plane, maybe we should stop skydiving also?
Wow, you're sensitive. No one said anything about banning skydiving, or tandems, or altimeters, or handycams.
A recent incident where the TM admitted later that he was videoing his cutaway instead of getting his hand on his reserve handle.
>Just ask the customers what they prefer.
Like I said, they like handycam, and they will pay for it. That will trump any safety consideration.
>People die skydiving as it is dangerous, it is also unecessary to jump from
>a plane, maybe we should stop skydiving also?
Wow, you're sensitive. No one said anything about banning skydiving, or tandems, or altimeters, or handycams.
skyrider 0
Quote>Is it just me, or is this robbing Tandem students of a chance to see
>the actuall exit . . .
Yes, they do. But it doesn't matter. They also cause safety problems with distraction, but again, doesn't really matter. It will make DZO's and TM's more money, and that's really all they will see.
Tha is Basically my issue with it, it is not about "that" student, it is all about money....why not at least "offer" both?
simple answer, , not as profitable, and most one timer tandems have no clue that clip they saw that made them want to try it, was shot from an outside camera!
I have never seen a DZ DVD , that shows only hand cam video for advertising...Guess why? more than half of the people would never make that first jump, if they only saw hand cam footage!
Ron 10
Quotesimple answer, , not as profitable, and most one timer tandems have no clue that clip they saw that made them want to try it, was shot from an outside camera!
What if the video they saw WAS from a HC only? You are assuming that every student that saw a tandem video saw an OV.
QuoteI have never seen a DZ DVD , that shows only hand cam video for advertising...
I have seen DZ advertise HC video only.
http://skydivearuba.com/cgi-bin/p/awtp-menu.cgi?d=air-adventures-aruba-nv&id=1382
http://www.aircapitaldropzone.com/tandemvideo.htm
QuoteGuess why? more than half of the people would never make that first jump, if they only saw hand cam footage!
Pure speculation. People IN THIS THREAD have said they know people that PREFERRED the HC.
Yes, it is a pure economic issue. But that does not mean it is wrong. You feel strongly about this since it is your job to do OV. Yes, OV provides some shots that HC cannot produce. But HC provides some shots OV cannot produce.
In the end the DZO is going to do what is best for his business.... For years that was Tandems with OV. For a while it might be both OV and HC. But at some point, IMO, OV will drop away and the student will not even notice.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
skyrider 0
Which it why I have Repeateddly said Offer BOTH...Not just handycam!
Many people will more than happially put out the money and us Cameramen will still have jobs!
rhys 0
QuoteA recent incident where the TM admitted later that he was videoing his cutaway instead of getting his hand on his reserve handle.
So is that an issue with hand cam, or an issue with the attitude of the said instructor?
Is it an issue with his training, or the camera?
This is akin to an incident of a camera jumper being above the tandem upon deployment.
It is an example of the inability of the person in question, not the activity they are performing.
QuoteLike I said, they like handycam, and they will pay for it. That will trump any safety consideration.
Now what safety consideration are you talking about, you gave us one example of an incident of a person with bad training/attitude. There have been A _SHITLOAD_OF_HANDCAM_JUMPS. you can only give me one example of an incident that had no serious consequence.
I would say the safety stats look fucking good! Maybe if some countries would have a guideline of 1000 jumps for tandems rather than 500, then we would see only jumpers with 1100+ jumps doing hand cam and much better attitudes.
QuoteWow, you're sensitive. No one said anything about banning skydiving, or tandems, or altimeters, or handycams.
I have seen comments such as "hand cam is ruining the sport" , "it is a rip off", "greedy drop zone owners"...
There are some bad attitudes from ungrateful jumpers that obviously do not have a clue about how much money, liability, hard work and passion it takes to run a DZ, often for little return.
Hand cam makes it possible for New DZ's to open. It would not be economically viable to do so with a Cessna and do OV.
But some want everything for nothing.
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix
rhys 0
QuoteMany people will more than happially put out the money and us Cameramen will still have jobs!
Why don't you have a tandem rating?
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix
billvon 3,068
>So is that an issue with hand cam, or an issue with the attitude of the
>said instructor?
Both. Fix either problem and you fix the problem.
>It is an example of the inability of the person in question, not the
>activity they are performing.
It is both. Someone who jumps a Nova or an overloaded Micro Raven 120 may lack the ability to land it safely, or the judgment to know when it is safe to jump. And you could blame injuries/fatalities on the jumper, not the gear.
Still, if someone said "Novas and overloaded Micro Ravens are a lot more dangerous than other canopies" they'd be right.
>There are some bad attitudes from ungrateful jumpers that obviously
>do not have a clue about how much money . . .
Like I said, money will be the bottom line, no matter what.
>said instructor?
Both. Fix either problem and you fix the problem.
>It is an example of the inability of the person in question, not the
>activity they are performing.
It is both. Someone who jumps a Nova or an overloaded Micro Raven 120 may lack the ability to land it safely, or the judgment to know when it is safe to jump. And you could blame injuries/fatalities on the jumper, not the gear.
Still, if someone said "Novas and overloaded Micro Ravens are a lot more dangerous than other canopies" they'd be right.
>There are some bad attitudes from ungrateful jumpers that obviously
>do not have a clue about how much money . . .
Like I said, money will be the bottom line, no matter what.
rhys 0
QuoteBoth. Fix either problem and you fix the problem.
so hand cam is a problem?
QuoteIt is both. Someone who jumps a Nova or an overloaded Micro Raven 120...
Ha, I have a M raven 110 and stood it up, I don't see what all the fuss is about.. It is very easy to be accurate with. on a dime.
QuoteLike I said, money will be the bottom line, no matter what.
Way to skew the info, everything in skydiving is to do with money from jump tickets, gear, airplanes, fuel.... you name it.
This is not limited to hand cam, though you suggest this is one of the problems with hand cam.
Money is one of the problems with everything. so your point is moot.
I would like to understand how you suggest that money over safety is a concern, this to me seem the same as whether or not we skydive at all. that cost money too, we are willing to pay it, and (LOTS OF) people have died skydiving.
How is you point about hand cams any different to the safety concerns of skydiving in general?"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix
. It is very easy to be accurate with. on a dime.
billvon 3,068
>so hand cam is a problem?
Hand cams can be a problem; so can other pieces of equipment. So can instructor experience and judgment.
>Ha, I have a M raven 110 and stood it up . . . .
I had a Nova and jumped it for years. Doesn't make it any safer.
If a 180 lb jumper with 200 jumps came to you and asked you "would a Micro Raven 120 or a Optimum 126 be a safer choice for me?" what would you answer?
>everything in skydiving is to do with money. . . This is not limited to
>hand cam
Some (not all) things in skydiving have to do with money. I agree, that issue is definitely not limited to hand cams.
Hand cams can be a problem; so can other pieces of equipment. So can instructor experience and judgment.
>Ha, I have a M raven 110 and stood it up . . . .
I had a Nova and jumped it for years. Doesn't make it any safer.
If a 180 lb jumper with 200 jumps came to you and asked you "would a Micro Raven 120 or a Optimum 126 be a safer choice for me?" what would you answer?
>everything in skydiving is to do with money. . . This is not limited to
>hand cam
Some (not all) things in skydiving have to do with money. I agree, that issue is definitely not limited to hand cams.
brokky 4
QuoteQuote
Hand cam makes it possible for New DZ's to open. It would not be economically viable to do so with a Cessna and do OV.
i suppose you have no outside videopeople at your dz (since you are such a strong defender of handy cam ONLY)
..now.. i looked at your dz´s website http://www.skydivefranz.co.nz/prices
and you are proposing "DVD and PHOTO packages" .The funny thing is the pictures illustrating that are taken from an outside photographer.......Do the passengers know they won´t get this kind of shots...?(not even talking about the picture quality..)
Maybe these prices are for an outside videoperson and i apologize if i got it wrong...
but if not...it´ s not really fair i reckon.....
And about passion...dropzones with ONLY tandems have nothing to do with passion...just money...(not saying it´s the case at yours...)wuk??
http://www.brunobrokken.com
Para5-0 0
QuoteMaybe if some countries would have a guideline of 1000 jumps for tandems rather than 500, then we would see only jumpers with 1100+ jumps doing hand cam and much better attitudes.
imho H/C tandems should be considered to be in the same category as any special needs tandem. The T/I should have a solid grasp of how to handle MOST situations that could arise well before taking his attention away from the basics, (stable exit, solid drogue deployment, good overall awareness, and mastered his/her landings)
I agree with a 1000 jump requirement for the rating and have advocated this for some time now. I also feel until this changes we should have a min jump requirement for H/C tandem jumps ie:
Ron 10
Quote>So is that an issue with hand cam, or an issue with the attitude of the
>said instructor?
Both. Fix either problem and you fix the problem.
Not really, the TI that thinks videoing his own cutaway instead of pulling the reserve is a good idea will find some other thing to do incorrectly.... Like maybe letting the OV guy stand on his back, or doing some freeflying with the tandem, or maybe doing "T's" with his legs on the side of the tandem. All of these things could be fixed by fixing the attitude of the instructor and only one would be fixed by banning HC.
Quote
Still, if someone said "Novas and overloaded Micro Ravens are a lot more dangerous than other canopies" they'd be right.
Bill do you have a tandem rating? How many jumps on a tandem?
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
billvon 3,068
>All of these things could be fixed by fixing the attitude of the
>instructor and only one would be fixed by banning HC.
Agreed - just as fixing the HC problem will solve some problems that banning that particular TM won't.
>Bill do you have a tandem rating? How many jumps on a tandem?
Not many; only did about 200 before I switched to AFF exclusively.
>instructor and only one would be fixed by banning HC.
Agreed - just as fixing the HC problem will solve some problems that banning that particular TM won't.
>Bill do you have a tandem rating? How many jumps on a tandem?
Not many; only did about 200 before I switched to AFF exclusively.
Ron 10
QuoteAgreed - just as fixing the HC problem will solve some problems that banning that particular TM won't.
Problems like? I have only heard of the one case.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
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