SkyDiving and Safety

[jigneshsoni 0]

I have been hearing a lot about people getting severely injured or even heard a lot about so many people die.

Most of the incidents I read about are with people who are experienced.

I would like to know what you guys think? Is it just a co-incidence that I have read more about experienced sky divers incidents and fatality as compared to no experience or not much experienced sky divers?

I have started to think that once you get more experience of the sport you attempt to try more stuff about sky diving which requires lot more skills and experience. What I mean by "more stuff" is anything and everything which includes more then just a "regular simple jump" What I mean by regular simple jump, is somebody exitting the plane, doing a rgular arch, opening at regular altitude and landing normal (no swooping, no special turns)

What I am trying to understand here is if the possibility of incidents increases to a very big factor when you do more stuff then the regular jump?

Thanks
Jigs

[jlmiracle 7]

Quote

Is it just a co-incidence that I have read more about experienced sky divers incidents and fatality as compared to no experience or not much experienced sky divers?

nope, no coincidence

Quote

I have started to think that once you get more experience of the sport you attempt to try more stuff

yep, but patience will keep you alive and uninjured.

Quote

is if the possibility of incidents increases to a very big factor when you do more stuff then the regular jump?

Yes, the more you do, the more "risks" you take, the more likely you are to get injured or killed. You can still do everything "right" and die.


Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[FrancoR 0]

Quote

What I am trying to understand here is if the possibility of incidents increases to a very big factor when you do more stuff then the regular jump?

Yes, it does.
Take a look at the skydiving fatalities database.
The biggest factor is probably the smaller, more aggressive canopies and more aggressive landing aproaches.
Other reasons:
Camera jumps wich take your attention from the actual skydive and inproper helmets that sometimes catch a line.
More people in the air.
More willingness to jump in not so good conditions like high wind, clouds.
Stuff like tubes, wingsuits.

Read the incidents forums an decide what you should not do.

Franco
Tube-, Wingsuit, Camera- and Cloudjumper
(Spectre @ 1,16 )

If it does not cost anything you are the product.

[kelpdiver 2]

the dives are riskier than a student AFF jump with a watching instructor, but the skill level is higher too.

They're also doing a lot more jumps. A student might spend a month to get the A, but most go a lot longer than that. 6 months wouldn't be unusual to get the 25+ jumps. But you might do half that in a weekend boogie as a jumper.

But what you're really asking is can you select your level of risk and to a large degree you can, by gear selection and dive flow.

[jigneshsoni 0]

Quote

the dives are riskier than a student AFF jump with a watching instructor, but the skill level is higher too.

They're also doing a lot more jumps. A student might spend a month to get the A, but most go a lot longer than that. 6 months wouldn't be unusual to get the 25+ jumps. But you might do half that in a weekend boogie as a jumper.

But what you're really asking is can you select your level of risk and to a large degree you can, by gear selection and dive flow.

Can you elobarate on contorlling the level of risk one wants to take by gear selection and dive flow?

[jlmiracle 7]

Quote

Can you elobarate on contorlling the level of risk one wants to take by gear selection and dive flow?

Gear: no gear is bullet proof.

Dive Flow: IMO, solo's are less risky then group freefall.

I'm kinda concerned with your questions. It almost seems like you are trying to get someone to say if you jump XXX brand of gear you will never get hurt or die. That is not the case in this sport. Like I said before you can do everything right and still die.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[jigneshsoni 0]

Quote

Quote

Can you elobarate on contorlling the level of risk one wants to take by gear selection and dive flow?

Gear: no gear is bullet proof.

Dive Flow: IMO, solo's are less risky then group freefall.

I'm kinda concerned with your questions. It almost seems like you are trying to get someone to say if you jump XXX brand of gear you will never get hurt or die. That is not the case in this sport. Like I said before you can do everything right and still die.

Judy

I totally understand that you can do everything right and still die. What I am trying to find out here is the chances that rises on doing certain things as compared to not doing certain things.

Besides when people die, there are always reasons. Trying to find out how one could try the best to not do certain things which could possibly reasons to incidents.

[nate_1979 9]

Quote

Stuff like tubes, windsuits.

Windsuit? Sounds pretty cool.. what does it do, where can I get one?

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[FrancoR 0]

Quote

Quote

Stuff like tubes, windsuits.

Windsuit? Sounds pretty cool.. what does it do, where can I get one?

Did i write that, impossible.

If it does not cost anything you are the product.

[billvon 3,002]

>I have started to think that once you get more experience of
>the sport you attempt to try more stuff about sky diving which
> requires lot more skills and experience.

That is true. I believe that the great majority of these incidents are caused by people who attempt such things _without_ enough skill or experience.

>What I mean by regular simple jump, is somebody exitting the
>plane, doing a rgular arch, opening at regular altitude and landing
> normal (no swooping, no special turns)

You mean doing that solo? That's pretty safe, but few people do that.

[nate_1979 9]

ah ha! I see you edit your post.. but it's too late, I've got it quoted!

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[MarkM 0]

Quote

What I am trying to find out here is the chances that rises on doing certain things as compared to not doing certain things.

Do a search for the skydiving fatalities database and read that. Also if you join the USPA, you'll get Parachutist which has incident reports in it each month. Study those and I think you'll see some patterns of activity that cause a decent amount of the incidents and fatalities.

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Can you elobarate on contorlling the level of risk one wants to take by gear selection and dive flow?

Gear - a lot of fatalities in the past 10 years have stemmed from flying tiny parachutes. Many of the people were not sufficiently experienced for the wingloading. Others were, but still made mistakes and at higher wingloadings (starting at 1.3 maybe) the margin for error is pretty small. So to reduce risk, don't go aggressive on the canopy and on the high performance landings. You still aren't bulletproof, mind you, but you're stacking the odds in your favor.

Having your own gear (after you've gotten your A or so) and knowing it, practicing your handle touches and other malfuction drills will also reduce your risk. Read the manuals - we had the incident this year where the Cypres was set at sea level, jump was at 1500ft. While it shouldn't have come to that point, the cypres almost certainly would have saved the jumper there.

Dive flow - the more people with you in the sky, the greater potential for collisions. Solos are very safe compared to jumping with 6-8 people you only sort of know. Two ways are a great number - lots you can do. Still not safe - just last summer two lowtimers died when one opened below the other. I hear Perris has a rule (guideline?) that the jump counts of the two should add up to at least 100. But it's much easier to match fall rates and deploy separation for 2 people. Go to bigger groups slowly. If you go to freeflying, as I will soon, it's back to solos, and then lots of two ways. The risk of group jumps is greater for FF because of higher speed variations and risk of corking.

Learn to track well. I knew mine was a bit weak and I asked that we spend a couple jumps at Bridge the Gap working on it. By next weekend I felt that I was getting twice the separation speed. You want space at opening.

There are enough controllable risks that I think you can readily cut the chance of death in half or better. That brings it down to the risk of scuba, which many think is a perfectly safe sport. And you can do much more than what I listed ... those were some low hanging fruit.

[kallend 2,027]

Quote

>I have started to think that once you get more experience of
>the sport you attempt to try more stuff about sky diving which
> requires lot more skills and experience.

That is true. I believe that the great majority of these incidents are caused by people who attempt such things _without_ enough skill or experience.



.

people with lots of skill and experience but poor judgment also fill the accident reports.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[goose491 0]

Quote

I totally understand that you can do everything right and still die.

The jurry is still out on that one.

You don't have to accept that as fact. We (skydivers) seem to split a fence as far as this is concerned.

I mean, people die. So: "You can do everything right and still die." thusly holds true in it's own right no matter where you are or what you are doing. But as a rule of thumb for skydiving? I do not subscribe to this fate.

Though it is a popular catch phrase, I advocate that if you get hurt or die in this sport, it is because of something you did wrong or failed to do right. I know I am not the only one.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[davelepka 4]

You want to be safe? Here are a few ideas..

First, approach any new activity with caution. Be sure that you research and understand what you are getting into before you begin. As a student, do you notice how much time your instructors spend preparring you for your next jump? That jump includes a new skill, which you need to understand completely before boarding the plane (in actaulity, all of your skills are new at this point).

You would be surprised to see how soem experienced jumpers approach a new skill or activity. They figure that it's all just skydiving, and dive right in. This can prove to be a costly mistake.

Second, take new things one at time. Don't load up with a new rig, new canopy, and your first 8 way jumping in 15 knot winds at a new DZ. Dial that back to one new choice at a time, and focus on that new thing. Then, understand that you may have to do several jumps focusing on your new thing before you are ready of another, which brings me to my next point......

Slow down. Take your time with what you are doing. Rushing though things only ends up shorting you on experience, experience you may need to save your life one day. You want advcie on how fast to proceed? Ask the oldest, slowest staffer at your DZ, then use his reccomendations as the bare minnimum of when to proceed. While the younger, faster guys seem to have it all figured out, they may have lost touch with what it's like to be new.

Don't feel 100% about something, don't do it.

Don't see a plan B, or an out? Don't do it.

See the plan B or out, and it looks shakey? Don't do it.


Trust me, you can have a lifetime of fun at the DZ following these reccomendations. I follow these guidelines every day at the DZ. Yeah I do things others consider extreme. Yeah I swoop my Velo, loaded at 2.3 downwind, but I've built myself up to that level over the last ten years. I took it nice and slow, and now I get to go nice and fast.

[rendezvous 0]

Quote

What I mean by regular simple jump, is somebody exitting the plane, doing a rgular arch, opening at regular altitude and landing normal (no swooping, no special turns)

Doing solos in Skydiving and saying you can Skydive is quite a bit the same as saying you play golf because you can make shots at the driving range. May be in Skydiving it'll qualify as a bit more glamouress than standing at a driving range but that's about it. Everything else that is the sport of Skydiving invovles a much higer risk than solos.

As difficult as AFF may seem to you now you will realize later that the act of Skydiving is actually really easy. Anyone with a desire can learn to do it. The Sport of Skydiving on the other hand needs a lot of Skill. That's where the actual challenge is and in this sport where there is challenge there is risk.

Point being, if you get into Skydiving you can't really keep yourself sheltered from risk. What you can do is better manage it and you do that though proper training, proper gear, sound judgement, experience, patience, committment, effort, luck, MONEY !, time ... the list is endless. If you feel safe and comfortable at any point in your Skydiving progression it doen't mean the risk has been done away with. It's very much there. It's just that you are probably better equipped to deal with it and hence more comfortable with it. There are also those who are stupid enough not to realize it, even they feel quite comfortable but those kind are another story. Anyway, when your ability to define your risk and your discpline to manage it strays from your act of taking the risk then you have a problem. Incidences at higer experience levels are not so much a result of the absolute risk being higher. They occur due to a chink in your ability to manage what you are taking on. Causes can be, complacency, indiscpline, boredom, image building and many more.

You don't have to stay on solos to keep yourself safe. As long as you can manage your risk you can take more and be relatively safe. To confuse matters more, to an extent you have to take a little more risk to learn enough to manage what you already have on your plate. By this logic, just because you chose not to push yourself further doesn't mean you have gotten safe and will remain so. It's all relative

[Witelli 0]

Quote

Doing solos in Skydiving and saying you can Skydive is quite a bit the same as saying you play golf because you can make shots at the driving range. May be in Skydiving it'll qualify as a bit more glamouress than standing at a driving range but that's about it. Everything else that is the sport of Skydiving invovles a much higer risk than solos.

I agree with much of what you had to say, I'd just like to comment on 1 thing. Golf is GAY, if anything isn't a sport, it's golf. Booger flicking would be more strenuous than golf. Skydiving can be enjoyed at any level. Obviously, the more conservative the skydiver the less chance of injury. The margin of error increases as your canopy size decreases. That is why the majority of fatalities involve experienced skydivers.

[hookitt 1]

Quote

I agree with much of what you had to say, I'd just like to comment on 1 thing. Golf is GAY, if anything isn't a sport, it's golf. Booger flicking would be more strenuous than golf.

How many games of golf you've played? More than say... 11? My guess is 0 to 1 ... tops. Probably none. It's a game but it's nothing like what you say.

Solo skydiving can be as simple or strenuous as you want to make it. Flying on your belly and looking around is pretty easy. When you go out and perform tumbling maneuvers like multiple layouts, spins, and other freestyle tricks, it’s a whole new game.

People have done layouts so fast their eyes turned red. Red spots appeared all over the face. The same goes with spins, like stand up spins. When you get better at stand up spins, you can turn fast enough to over fill your hands with blood. It hurts and can cause nerve damage.

All solos are not created equal.

The original post states this: “What I am trying to understand here is if the possibility of incidents increases to a very big factor when you do more stuff then the regular jump?”

As more skill is obtained, it’s only natural to perform at a higher level or push the boundaries. Sometimes the boundaries are pushed too far.

It’s the same with any activity such as skiing, skateboarding, motorcycles

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[Witelli 0]

Quote

How many games of golf you've played? More than say... 11? My guess is 0 to 1 ... tops. Probably none. It's a game but it's nothing like what you say.

Quote

Sorry, I shouldn't have knocked golf like that, I must have been a little cranky last night. I have played like 20-30 times, but it just wasn't for me.

Quote

Solo skydiving can be as simple or strenuous as you want to make it.

This is the beauty of it, as in skiing. You can enjoy it in your own way, however you want, whenever you want.

• Quote

Share this post

---

Link to post

Share on other sites

[AlexCrowley 0]

I've no intention of hijacking this thread, but it is an interesting one.

my coaches when I started had 9000+ and 14000+ jumps respectively. Their advice to me was to be careful of listening to (and being at) 300 - 700 jumps, as thats when you start to think that you 'get it' and have faced everything the sport can throw at you, and become complacent. Of course, they also told me to never believe anything I heard from anyone with under 400 jumps :) Rightly or wrongly I've kept with that advice, with the exception that I'll listen and then go ask someone with 2k+ jumps for their take on the subject.

I really dont mean that paragraph to be divisive, it's just I have enough life experience to know that looking at any activity from one end of the experience spectrum is very different than when sitting at the other, and that the activity changes and our concept of what is 'knowledge' changes with experience. (martial arts epitomize this mental shift with a return to a white (novice) belt at the highest levels of achievement).

How do those multiK jumpers feel about that perception?

Thanks in advance.

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.