Scared myself bad yesterday

[tmarine253 0]

I always do enjoy the dumb ass comments that make it into each thread. It seems like it should be a rule that someone has to make some stupid comments when someone is trying to seek information. For those who actually contributed something, I really appreciate it.

[sundevil777 102]

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Now, what if you hadn't been able to get the second brake to release? What would you have done?

That is a great question. I do not think I would have cutaway because that thought crossed my mind but I felt I was entirely too low. I probably would have continued to pump my risers as hard as I could have and then hold them back as hard as I could in order to try to get the canopy into the flair. But I honestly can't say for sure what I would have done.

You say you would "pump your risers", do you mean the toggles, or the risers? We must be sure you are correctly describing your thoughts.

You should not trust what I'm going to tell you now, don't trust it at all until you run it past your instructors and it makes sense to you...but please consider...

As another said, what is important to understand is that you had full ability to stop your spiral after the first brake released. You only had to pull down that toggle that released back to the point where the loop is at the ring on the riser - this is recreating the condition of when both toggles are stowed. Your spiral/turn would have stopped and you'd fly straight.

There is absolutely no need to cut away from this condition just because you can't get one, or even both brakes to release. If only one side releases, then your flare will be a little less effective and the flare might happen a bit faster than normal because the canopy will be starting from a partially flared condition to begin with, but that is really not at all an unsafe thing to do (the stowed position is not pulling down very far on the toggles.

It is very important that you realize that your canopy would need to be flown in an "offset" manner, to flare you will end with one toggle all the way down like normal, and the other (that did not release), will only come down to your chest as you experienced during your controllability check. That will result in an "even/straight" flare, the only difference from normal is that it will be from a partial brake position.

Flaring from a partially braked condition is actually very useful when it is necessary to land in a very tight area, and is often described as "sinking in" your canopy, or an "accuracy approach". When you "sink in" your canopy, you can correct for going long or coming up short of your intended spot by applying a bit more or less toggle input to adjust your angle of descent. The descent of a large canopy in a half to deep brake condition should be slow enough that you can PLF a landing with no flare at the end, just a steady descent rate with less than normal forward speed.l A variation of this technique that is more commonly seen is when someone is going long, they might apply some brakes for a short time, but then go back to full flight with plenty of altitude to spare so that they don't hit the ground while the canopy surges forward (and it does surge dangerously forward, especially if you let the toggles up quickly). Some tandem instructors use this technique to get extra airspeed from the surge for a more effective flare, but you can also kill yourself. I am only advising you learn more about how this "sinking it in" technique is done and why it is useful - DO NOT just try it out yourself at this stage in your jumping career - it deserves serious discussion with an instructor. I think it is reasonable to do some of this stuff at high altitude (after discussion with your instructor).

To get back to your incident, the danger of doing an "offset" flare as I described is that the brake that didn't release might decide to do so right at the time you are flaring, and that would quickly cause you to turn/dive at just the wrong time (that could really hurt). You might be able to quickly compensate if that occurred, but I wouldn't expect to be able to react quickly enough. That risk can be avoided by pulling down the toggle by the nose - at least one finger on both sides of the brake line so that the nose of the toggle is horizontal (no chance for the loop to come off the end of the nose of the toggle as you flare if you hold it like this). If the loop were right at the end of the nose then it would not be possible to do this.

All of this stuff is not natural for a new jumper to have thought about, but I think it is worth discussing so that you and others can gain valuable knowledge. As long as you realize that advice you get from the internet might be simply wrong, misinterpreted or misapplied, and you take responsibility to thoroughly review it with your instructors, then you are going to be accelerating your learning curve (a good thing). Be careful out there.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Bertt 0]

Your new here. Don't include MakeItHappen in the dumb-ass category. She has a right to be cynical. In fact, I think it's her sworn duty. At any rate, she seems to enjoy it and we admire her enthusiasm. As Nietzsche said, "Sometimes I get so cynical and pissed-off at the world that I just start spouting philosophy."

You don't have to outrun the bear.

[JohnnyMarko 1]

congrats

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call me cynical if you wish, but I think tmarine is a troll.

Yeah yeah
You called me a troll too and I happened to be only a 100 jump smartass

What goes around, comes later.

[popsjumper 2]

Now you're a 164-jump smart ass?


Glad you got the "smart" end of the spectrum covered...it leaves the "dumb" end open for others.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Rover 11]

More posts than jumps........ as does the OP now

2 wrongs don't make a right - but 3 lefts do.

[Rugby82 0]

I had the same issue too a while ago. I use extra long risers on my rig for swooping. These risers aren't standard PDF risers. My old steeringlines had very tight cat eyes for the new toggles. On one or more occasions one half brake wouldn't release while the other would.

The solution I had was the following. Pull the toggle with the released half-brake down till you fly straight and then bring the two toggles together at eye- or chest height with both hands trough the toggles. This way the canopy will fly straight and you can pull the cat-eye over the toggle with your fingers to release the half-brake setting. Just keep in mind that when you release the second half brake in this manner that the canopy will start to dive because of the offset of the toggles. Let both toggles up and everything is ok.

This is a solution to a defect in your gear. Let a rigger adjust the cat-eyes of the toggles and everything is ok.

Also in my opinion, pulling your rear risers down below 1000 ft to try to fix the problem could be a very dangerous thing if you don't know the stall-point of the canopy on rear-risers or rear-risers with uneven toggle-settings. With a bad stall-recovery you could be in even bigger problems (a twist with uneven brakesettings isn't fun below 1000 ft).

Hope this helps.

Blue skies!

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More posts than jumps........ as does the OP now

I'm trying hard to jump all I can.
If I win a lottery or so - I'd jump you too... I mean I'd overjump your posting numbers

What goes around, comes later.

[miconar 0]

Thanks everyone, this was interesting to read.

I have a question, or more of a wondering thought, that came up while reading. I pre-apologize for the length of my thoughts :)

when I was a student, I did my control checks as described above, ie release and let up, full flare, toggle turn both ways.

at some point around jump 50 an instructor explained to me how to turn my canopy (then a pilot 190) by looking, leaning, and turning with the rear risers. this felt much smoother and more controllable then the sharper responses I was getting from the toggles, and very soon I was doing all of my turns on rear risers, up to and including turn to final. I am still flying my current canopy like this, a pilot 168. I only use the toggles to flare after opening, separate vertically from someone else on the load, and flare for landing. I do keep my hands in the toggles at all times.

but only now as I was reading this thread, I realized that I had made a major change to my control checks over time without giving it much thought. I no longer check if it turns on toggles, and I don't directly check if it turns on rears either. I some times turn on the rears immediately after deployment, before releasing the breaks, to point my canopy away from jump run, so that is one side I will test, but before releasing the breaks, and not even that when i open on heading and with out traffic in front of me, which is often the case. then I release the breaks and flare, on the same stroke, a flare from a braked position, but if it feels right that's all I do for my control check nowadays.

So if i open a tad low after a tandem video, and im long, flying upwind, opened facing towards the LZ and have no traffic conflicts and landing hazards between me and the LZ, I might not turn at all during the entire ride, just flare after opening, ride my rears to make the LZ and flare for landing. This sounds like a lot has to happen, but with the specifics of my DZ this actually happens quite often jumping camera first on the first load of a windy day, only me, the tandems, and two other video guys jumping a wing the size of a thong and going out later in jump run, that I would have a perfectly straight in approach with no turns what so ever at any point in the ride.

I do look at the system after deploying, before and after flaring (harness straps, 3 rings/rsl, break lines and guide loop area, lines and canopy) to make sure everything looks normal, and im always mindful of my position under the wing, the feel and sound of the wind against my body and how my weight feels against the harness to tell me what the wing is doing and how it responds to my inputs, and >think< that I have a good understanding of how a good wing feels, looks, sounds, and responds.

so my question is, do you feel this check is lacking, that I could miss a problem with my canopy and just fly it down low without knowing?

[Bertt 0]

I think there's definitely a danger in not checking the steering while you're up high. What if a steering line was worn or damaged to the point that it broke when you pulled on the toggle. Maybe even worse, what if the steering line was fouled in such a way that it would pull down, but not go back up, putting the canopy in a hard turn that you could not correct. Just something to think about.

You don't have to outrun the bear.

[tetra316 0]

If you feel you need to avoid turns in order to make it back, just do a simple 90 toggle turn and then an opposite turn. Much better than not and more likely to catch an issue than not doing anything at all.

Me, I almost always do a flare as soon as I'm open. I may not do any toggle turns but I do a full flare which I believe accomplishes the same goal of controlability check. After all I can do harness turns if needed but I haven't figured out how to do a harness flare yet

[miconar 0]

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I think there's definitely a danger in not checking the steering while you're up high. What if a steering line was worn or damaged to the point that it broke when you pulled on the toggle. Maybe even worse, what if the steering line was fouled in such a way that it would pull down, but not go back up, putting the canopy in a hard turn that you could not correct. Just something to think about.

I do pull both toggles to full extension when I test flare, so those two options are covered. Tetra316's post sounds like what I was thinking (not explicitly) when I stopped checking toggle turns: I dont do it or need to do it, so why check?

Thinking about it now, if I ever find myself really close to a canopy collision after releasing the breaks, I will use the toggles for the sharper, dragier response. Or if I ever need to make a low flat turn. So I can think of scenrios where I would use them, all of them emergency related, which makes the ability the toggle turn worth checking.

Still unsure about this. Does anyone know of any mals that would only present on a toggle turn, but not on a flare or rears turn? I guess checking the toggles steer properly wouldnt hurt, even if I am long, so im inclined to throw it back into my checks just because it doesnt cost me anything, but id hate to work something usless into my routine for no reason.

Thank you :-)

[SpinxB 0]

I'd actually like to hear peoples thoughts on cutting away at 1200 ft. as well. Personally it would have to be one bad ass unrecoverable malfunction before I'd do that!

[JackC1 0]

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I'd actually like to hear peoples thoughts on cutting away at 1200 ft. as well. Personally it would have to be one bad ass unrecoverable malfunction before I'd do that!

Of all the ways I can think of that you'd be at 1200ft with a mal that required cutting away, nearly all of them involve a fuck up of some sort to get you there in the first place.

If you pulled at 1200ft and had a mal, you're an idiot for pulling that low.
If you rode a mal down to 1200ft, you're an idiot for not chopping higher
If you did something to give yourself a mal at 1200ft, you're an idiot for flying like a cock.
If someone flew into you at 1200ft, you're both idiots for not looking where you're going

Having said that, my personal plan is to do whatever I think will give me the best chance of walking away. 1200ft is low, but I might consider it if the alternative was worse.

[SpinxB 0]

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I'd actually like to hear peoples thoughts on cutting away at 1200 ft. as well. Personally it would have to be one bad ass unrecoverable malfunction before I'd do that!

Of all the ways I can think of that you'd be at 1200ft with a mal that required cutting away, nearly all of them involve a fuck up of some sort to get you there in the first place.

If you pulled at 1200ft and had a mal, you're an idiot for pulling that low.
If you rode a mal down to 1200ft, you're an idiot for not chopping higher
If you did something to give yourself a mal at 1200ft, you're an idiot for flying like a cock.
If someone flew into you at 1200ft, you're both idiots for not looking where you're going

Having said that, my personal plan is to do whatever I think will give me the best chance of walking away. 1200ft is low, but I might consider it if the alternative was worse.

Well put. I had sort of the same idea, that I would basically only cut away that low if I thought I was gonna die otherwise...

[popsjumper 2]

1200ft? Well, we could discuss canopy transfer at that point.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[JohnnyMarko 1]

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I'd actually like to hear peoples thoughts on cutting away at 1200 ft. as well. Personally it would have to be one bad ass unrecoverable malfunction before I'd do that!

Like this guy?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QECtqCRNKxs

[skydivr 0]

After opening:

1. If you don't already, get your hands on your risers immediately.

2. Take a good look around (for traffic to avoid)

3. Stow your slider if applicable.

4. Look around for traffic AGAIN

5. Put your hands in your toggles, LOOK AT THEM AND WATCH THEM RELEASE when you do controllability check; that way you know if there are any issues.

6. Go ahead and finish controllablity check

7. Look around for traffic again, then proceed to plan your landing.

Do not ride around on your riser with unreleased toggles for too long, not a good idea.

Keith Abner
D-17590

"Those who do, can't explain; those who don't, can't understand"

[Bertt 0]

I misunderstood what you were saying. I thought you were sometimes not checking the brake lines at all until it was time to land. I agree with you and Tetra that releasing the brakes and flaring to full arm extension will prove that the brake lines are intact and clear.

You don't have to outrun the bear.

[skydivr 0]

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I'd actually like to hear peoples thoughts on cutting away at 1200 ft. as well. Personally it would have to be one bad ass unrecoverable malfunction before I'd do that!

Like this guy?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QECtqCRNKxs

What else you gonna do? Sit there and ride it out? Cutting away at 1200 ft with a partial or even total is MUCH better than waiting for your Cypress to fire at 700+/-; you are the first AND LAST line of defense NEVER GIVE UP.

Keith Abner
D-17590

"Those who do, can't explain; those who don't, can't understand"

[JohnnyMarko 1]

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I'd actually like to hear peoples thoughts on cutting away at 1200 ft. as well. Personally it would have to be one bad ass unrecoverable malfunction before I'd do that!

Like this guy?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QECtqCRNKxs

What else you gonna do? Sit there and ride it out? Cutting away at 1200 ft with a partial or even total is MUCH better than waiting for your Cypress to fire at 700+/-; you are the first AND LAST line of defense NEVER GIVE UP.

Never said what I would do...just provided an example

[jtnesbitt 0]

Just because you cant land it doesnt mean your only option is to cut away. As someone already suggested a canopy transfer would be an option as well as an intentional two out. Remember, this thread was started by someone with very low jump numbers who started spiraling at 1200ft, which would put them under 1000ft in less than a few seconds and we teach students never to cutaway below 1000 except in a downplane situation.

"If this post needs to be moderated I would prefer it to be completly removed and not edited and butchered into a disney movie" - DorkZone Hero

[tmarine253 0]

Can you please explain what a downplane situation is?

[skydivr 0]

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Just because you cant land it doesnt mean your only option is to cut away. As someone already suggested a canopy transfer would be an option as well as an intentional two out. Remember, this thread was started by someone with very low jump numbers who started spiraling at 1200ft, which would put them under 1000ft in less than a few seconds and we teach students never to cutaway below 1000 except in a downplane situation.

Fair enough. With student gear the likelyhood of a downplane is somewhat less than that of the smaller main/reserve combos. If both were out and flying well I could see your point. But if I've got a Cypres on, passing below 1200 with a partial/spin, I'd prefer to have clear air and cut it away before the Cypres fires than take the chance of getting it tangled up.

The BEST solution, however, is to PACK WELL and have a good body position on opening. I have had only one malfunction in 2700 jumps and 18 years, and you know why? Because I pack my own gear....better go knock on wood now that I've said that

Keith Abner
D-17590

"Those who do, can't explain; those who don't, can't understand"