~10 percent acceptable?

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"Paratrooping isn't about the jumping; it's about using jumping as a specialized insertion technique, wherein ~10 percent casualties due to insertion injuries are acceptable."
by member of 82d Airborne (Ret.)

Would you participate in sport skydiving if a rate of fatal malfunctions is ~10 percent?

I mean, it's not like we're defending our countries by jumping FS, CRW or FF

What goes around, comes later.

[piisfish 140]

I'd quit after my 9th successful jump

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[Para5-0 0]

or 90th ,depending how you look at it.

[format 1]

What goes around, comes later.

[piisfish 140]

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or 90th ,depending how you look at it.

I Like the way you think

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[davelepka 4]

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"Paratrooping isn't about the jumping; it's about using jumping as a specialized insertion technique, wherein ~10 percent casualties due to insertion injuries are acceptable."

In the military context, I think 'casualties' refers to any troop not fit for battle, not to actual fatalities. A twisted ankle or broken hand would be classified as a casualty because that soldier would not be available to participate in battle.

[piisfish 140]

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A twisted ankle or broken hand would be classified as a casualty because that soldier would not be available to participate in battle.

PUSSY

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[wayneflorida 0]

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"Paratrooping isn't about the jumping; it's about using jumping as a specialized insertion technique, wherein ~10 percent casualties due to insertion injuries are acceptable."

In the military context, I think 'casualties' refers to any troop not fit for battle, not to actual fatalities. A twisted ankle or broken hand would be classified as a casualty because that soldier would not be available to participate in battle.

True but, in the practical sense such as the airborne drops on D-Day, I don't think those guys had any option but to participate in the battle until they got some relief from the troops from the beach.

From wiki
About 13,000 101st and 82nd troops
{D-Day casualties for the airborne divisions were calculated in August 1944 as 1,240 for the 101st Airborne Division and 1,259 for the 82nd Airborne. Of those, the 101st suffered 182 killed, 557 wounded, and 501 missing. For the 82nd, the total was 156 killed, 347 wounded, and 756 missing.[17]}

[Scrumpot 1]

Who ever said ANYTHING about a 10% rate of fatal malfunctions?

I know what thread (and post) you are referring to, but your interpretation (and this poll) is just absurd.

The quote is a 10% CASUALTY rate. Not fatality rate.
For your information -
From the US DOD Dictionary of Military Terminology:

CASUALTY - There are seven casualty statuses: (1) deceased; (2) duty status - whereabouts unknown; (3) missing; (4) very seriously ill or injured; (5) seriously ill or injured; (6) incapacitating illness or injury; and (7) not seriously injured. See also casualty; casualty category; casualty type; deceased; duty status - whereabouts unknown; missing; not seriously injured; seriously ill or injured; very seriously ill or injured.

In short, a casualty is any event or circumstance that takes the soldier out of the active action. Acceptable casualty rate of ~ 10% is stated and quantified for purposes of being able to (in part) calculate accurately - total deployment #'s needed to obtain successful insertion of active battle-ready/capable troops into the theater. Not for stating it is acceptable that ~ 10% of all those dropped will be killed by just the drop itself alone, and that this is "acceptable".

Hope this helps clarify.

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[topdocker 0]

Plus, a good number of the casualties were from aircraft being shot down/colliding.

But those dudes from D-Day had brass ones! At night, near water, enemy territory, lightly armed against entrenched experienced combat troops. 10% seems low! (unless you are one of the 10%!).

top

PS. or anyone else who has made a combat jump!

Jump more, post less!

[matthewcline 0]

This is not a quote about "Fatal Malfunctions" that goal is ZERO%.

This is a quote about injuries. 10% is acceptable and calculated in planning for Training and 35% (was) for Combat Jumps.

But I would still jump in the Civi world, I would just be the one who stayed in the 90% area. Like I did for my 21 years in the Army.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[robinheid 0]

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This is not a quote about "Fatal Malfunctions" that goal is ZERO%.

This is a quote about injuries. 10% is acceptable and calculated in planning for Training and 35% (was) for Combat Jumps.

But I would still jump in the Civi world, I would just be the one who stayed in the 90% area. Like I did for my 21 years in the Army.

Matt

+1

My quote was indeed about insertion injuries, not fatalities or even malfunctions.

And as someone else said above, just because you're hurt doesn't mean you're out of the fight.

And yes, the D-Day Eve dudes were bad asses. Read "Currahee!" by Donald R. Burgett for an amazing account of the Normandy airborne invasion from a 101st Airborne trooper perspective.

(Currahee, BTW, is a slogan for one 101st unit, the 506th Infantry Regiment, from the Cherokee word "We stand alone together.")

In many ways, the parachutists who jumped into occupied France in the dark with 100+ pounds of gear and were scattered all over through "the fog of war," changed history because, insertion casualties and operational confusion to the contrary, they took the initiative and started shooting Germans whether they were one man alone or with two or three or 30 of their airborne colleagues.

This caused the Germans, in their logical and regimented minds, to assume that every contact represented a platoon-sized force (~40); they couldn't get their heads around the idea that one or two crazy American parachutist soldiers would take on 100 Germans, or even 10 or 20, but they did.

The Germans then multiplied this mistaken assumption across the much-larger-than-intended-due-to-inadvertent-dispersion battlespace in which the paratroopers operated (82d went in there too) -- and concluded that there were about five times more paratroopers than there actually were.

This led the Germans to hold their reserve forces in place for several hours until they could figure out where the biggest threat was -- and by the time they did, the beachhead had been established.

Literally, without the total balls-to-the wall bravery and individual initiative of the 101st and 82d Airborne paratroopers taking it to the Germans, by themselves and in small groups against vastly larger German units (AKA as "a target-rich environment"), it is likely that the D-Day invasion would have failed.

Airborne!

SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

[matthewcline 0]

And thus the the birth of "LGOP's"

I still love the German officer who said, I will paraphrase: It does us no good to study American Paratrooper's operations manuals, we find that they haven't read them either and don't fight by the manual.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[billvon 3,008]

>I'd quit after my 9th successful jump

I do that when I drive. I found out that most accidents happen within a mile of the home, so now I park a mile away and ride a bike the rest of the way.

[pkasdorf 0]

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Would you participate in sport skydiving if a rate of fatal malfunctions is ~10 percent?

It is like asking if you would partcipate in russian roulette with four more chances than with a six shotgun. With all due respect, only people with suicidal tendencies would abide. And, honestly, I don-t think military parachuting fits the description.

HISPA # 18 POPS # 8757

[heavydude 0]

Probably not, however even in high risk stuff like BASE equipment malfunction seems rare. I read the Base fatality list online recently, realy interesting, looks like allot of pilot error in most cases.

[tmarine253 0]

In WWII only about 20% of airborne troops were combat effective if they were air dropped. This means they had a casualty rate of 80% if we are referring to the actual definition of casualty.

[robinheid 0]

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In WWII only about 20% of airborne troops were combat effective if they were air dropped. This means they had a casualty rate of 80% if we are referring to the actual definition of casualty.

See, this is why you are a Marine.* First of all, you don't define "combat effective" (that means, tell us what the term means).

Second, whether your percentage is accurate or not, insertion injuries are not the only factor that determines combat effectiveness.

Third, that's still twice the percentage of World War II Marines who actually fired their weapons in combat.



* Props to you anyway... better to be a Marine than to never serve at all.

SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

[Scrumpot 1]

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This is not a quote about "Fatal Malfunctions" that goal is ZERO%.

This is a quote about injuries. 10% is acceptable and calculated in planning for Training and 35% (was) for Combat Jumps.

Just imagine if the OP was correct in his interpretation though. ...Would sure make those demo's of mass-deployments (like the one just recently posted about all the just "simple" tree landings) a heck of a lot more "interesting" for the spectators now, wouldn't it?

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[fastphil 0]

With a 10% mal rate skydiving might finally become a spectator sport...

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Just imagine if the OP was correct in his interpretation though. ...Would sure make those demo's of mass-deployments (like the one just recently posted about all the just "simple" tree landings) a heck of a lot more "interesting" for the spectators now, wouldn't it?

Ok, I was wrong in interpreting 'casualties', not first - not last time. You all can bet on it.

Still, more than enough looneys checked option 1. (us included), I don't get those ckecking No 2. and No 3. option though

What goes around, comes later.