I'm confused about going to half brakes

[Jeth 0]

Ok, I'm confused. Does going to half brakes make your forward speed slower, or your descent rate slower? I have heard to go to half brakes to "hang out" up high to let traffic clear. I was also told to do a "braked approach" if I'm going to overshoot my target. And I have heard going to half brakes if you are trying to get back from a long spot. But if brakes are slowing my forward speed (as would make sense for the overshooting example) why would that help me get back from a long spot? Wouldn't that make it worse? Or if it is actually slowing my descent rate, then how will that help with the overshooting? In that case, I think I'd want to get down faster, so as to not go past my target.

So which is it? Thanks.

"At 13,000 feet nothing else matters."
PFRX!!!!!
Team Funnel #174, Sunshine kisspass #109
My Jump Site

[davelepka 4]

Half brakes will slow your forward speed and vertical descent rate.

At altittude, this makes you stay up longer.

On a long spot, upwind of the DZ, the slower descent rate exposes your canopy to the upper level winds for a longer period of time, getting you bacl to the DZ.

On a landing, into the wind, half brakes will slow your forward speed, keeping you from over shooting.

Half barakes only effects the canopy one way (well two ways, vertical and horizontal speed). The variable is the winds, and your relationship to them.

[Jeth 0]

Ah okay, thanks! That makes more sense. So I should only do that on the long spot if I'm upwind, good to know. (Unfortunately I usually find myself DOWNWIND and far away. )

So for the braked approach, do I let up at some point to do a full flare? or do I just stay in half brakes and then pull them the rest of the way down for touch down?

"At 13,000 feet nothing else matters."
PFRX!!!!!
Team Funnel #174, Sunshine kisspass #109
My Jump Site

[davelepka 4]

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So for the braked approach, do I let up at some point to do a full flare? or do I just stay in half brakes and then pull them the rest of the way down for touch down?

Ideally, you will recognize your going to overshoot high up enough to use some brakes to shorten your approach, then be able to let them up, and get a full flare.

The trick is that your canopy will dive a bit after you let up, and during this dive, you will have very little flare power. How high up you need to return to full flight is hard to say, but 100 ft a safe-ish number.

If you are in a tight area, you can fly half brakes right into a flare, but expect a less powerful flare, and be ready to PLF.

As for being far downwind, that sounds like a spotting problem. You should never exit too far downwind to make it back. Either the winds are too strong (solution: take the spot further upwind), or you are exiting too soon (solution: take the spot further upwind).

[speedy 0]

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As for being far downwind, that sounds like a spotting problem. You should never exit too far downwind to make it back. Either the winds are too strong (solution: take the spot further upwind), or you are exiting too soon (solution: take the spot further upwind).

Or, as I see time and time again, you have over shot the landing area and can't get back to it. This means on windy days you may need to start your turns to the crosswind and final leg of your landing pattern earlier than you think. Otherwise, by the time you have completed your turn you will be further down wind of the landing area than expected.

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[lisamariewillbe 1]

I do a half braked approach on every jump... I almost always land soft so I always assumed my flare was a full flare even though I started it from half brakes. Granted I have to run the landings out. For me I have felt safer with the half brake approach, is this bad to continue?

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
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[billvon 2,998]

>For me I have felt safer with the half brake approach, is this bad to continue?

It is something you should start getting away from, for two reasons.

One, it's safer to start your flare from full flight. Not all canopies can give you a safe flare from half brakes, since the canopy does not have as much speed available. This will become even more important when you start downsizing.

Two, it is difficult to fly in a pattern if one person is going really, really slowly (and descending very steeply) because they have a larger canopy in half brakes.

As an interim step, I'd recommend coming out of half brakes at 100 feet or so, then flaring at the correct height.

[AggieDave 6]

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On a landing, into the wind, half brakes will slow your forward speed, keeping you from over shooting.

Half barakes only effects the canopy one way (well two ways, vertical and horizontal speed). The variable is the winds, and your relationship to them.

I want to expand on that. Only when the wind speed is high enough to overcome the ratio of your forward speed and decent speed will it make you "sink." Otherwise you're extending your glide and you will actually go further.


For those reading this wondering if that's true or not, go up and do a hop-n-pop, find the accuracy spot then go into 1/4 brakes and find the spot, then 1/2 brakes and do the same then 3/4 brakes and do the same. Do that into the wind and not into the wind.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[tso-d_chris 0]

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I do a half braked approach on every jump... I almost always land soft so I always assumed my flare was a full flare even though I started it from half brakes. Granted I have to run the landings out. For me I have felt safer with the half brake approach, is this bad to continue?

(Well controlled)Forward speed prior to your flare is your friend. The more you have, the more extra lift your canopy can potentially produce to soften your landing during your flare. From half brakes, your flare will not be as powerful.

The general rule is this: You can trade altitude for speed, and you can trade speed for lift. The less forward speed you have, the less lift your canopy can produce.

If the canopy speed at full flight is too fast for you to be comfortable with, you should talk to your instructors/S&TA to find a more appropriately sized canopy that you can confidently fly at full flight when you are making your final approach.

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[Jeth 0]

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As for being far downwind, that sounds like a spotting problem. You should never exit too far downwind to make it back. Either the winds are too strong (solution: take the spot further upwind), or you are exiting too soon (solution: take the spot further upwind).

Or, as I see time and time again, you have over shot the landing area and can't get back to it. This means on windy days you may need to start your turns to the crosswind and final leg of your landing pattern earlier than you think. Otherwise, by the time you have completed your turn you will be further down wind of the landing area than expected.

Yep, done that. But sometimes I am just a bit downwind on opening. But when I turn to get upwind, I am barely moving forward. I start to sink and then I'm afraid I'm not going to get upwind far enough to do my pattern. Like just last weekend, I was at the downwind end of the landing area (I opened in that area). I saw everybody else flying upwind, they zipped right over there. So then I tried to go that way, but I was barely moving. It took me from above 2 grand till 800 ft to get over to where I wanted to start my pattern. (Basically just across the field) So I was wondering if I tried to fly in half brakes for this problem, if it would help. But it sounds like since I am flying upwind, it wouldn't.

I'm just not sure if I am too light under my canopy, or I'm doing something wrong. I definitely move a lot slower than everybody else, especially facing into the wind.

"At 13,000 feet nothing else matters."
PFRX!!!!!
Team Funnel #174, Sunshine kisspass #109
My Jump Site

[davelepka 4]

My guess is that with 25 jumps you are jumping student gear, or something close to it. Also, judging from your picture, you are a skinny chick. All of this adds up to a low WL, and a canopy that will offer a soft-ish landing with a brakes approach, or a partial flare.

As your experience allows you to jump a more loaded canopy, you'll have to begin flying your approaches in full lfight.

As an experiement, fly an approach on your current canopy in full flight, and you may not have to run your landings out at all. It may take a few jumps, but you should be able to do a one or two step landing with no trouble.

[mdrejhon 8]

I recently got a great book called "Parachute and its Pilot" by Brian Germain. It goes into good detail about using toggles/brakes, rear risers, front risers, harness, for turns, for glide angle control, etc.

Personally, I'm more used to rear risers now than half brakes. Glide angle just seem a little more intuitive for me that way. Landed in the peas 3 times consecutively under a rental Sabre 190 when I figured out angle control with my rear risers. (I'm still tuning into my rig that I just purchased, which is a Sabre 170). Since I had been changing gear a lot (rental to rental to my own rig), brakes vary more partly because brake lengths vary and on the canopy, so half brakes may actually mean the stall point of a canopy, which would get you down faster, not slower. The brake behaviour seem vary more from canopy to canopy than using rear risers whose behaviour is relatively predictable in comparision. Now that said, half brakes are one of the way to get back from a long spot, as long as you're not too close to your stall point, it does make your descent rate slower by flattening your glide... Other ways include loosening chest strap under canopy (this widens the canopy a tiny bit by stretching out the risers more), lifting legs (this lessens drag), etc. I had to do all that (on top of a prearranged higher pull, and holding both rear risers down a bit) to become one of the only ones to make it back on a bad spot a couple times :-) It sure does make a difference when I do all of them at once.

(Some of this could be wrong though - newbie alert here on newbie radar - BEEP, BEEP! - but a lot of this comes from Germain's great book!).

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Ok, I'm confused. Does going to half brakes make your forward speed slower, or your descent rate slower? I have heard to go to half brakes to "hang out" up high to let traffic clear. I was also told to do a "braked approach" if I'm going to overshoot my target. And I have heard going to half brakes if you are trying to get back from a long spot. But if brakes are slowing my forward speed (as would make sense for the overshooting example) why would that help me get back from a long spot? Wouldn't that make it worse? Or if it is actually slowing my descent rate, then how will that help with the overshooting? In that case, I think I'd want to get down faster, so as to not go past my target.

So which is it? Thanks.

[Jeth 0]

Ya, I have seen that book, I might have to check it out. (I heard that Brian is pretty "deep" though. I guess it was still helpful info for you though, huh?)

Yup, someone told me to try lifting my legs to get going faster forward, I'm gonna try that. I think I will try going to half brakes on final, too, to test the overshooting thing. (But I think I will pull up before flaring since I don't get a very powerful flare anyway.)

Thanks, guys!

"At 13,000 feet nothing else matters."
PFRX!!!!!
Team Funnel #174, Sunshine kisspass #109
My Jump Site

[mr2mk1g 10]

Note that if you let the brakes up quickly and go back into full drive your canopy will surge towards the ground momentarily as it picks up speed. If you do this too low you could seriously injure yourself.

Watch some tandems land and you may well will see them doing this, although they will do it at a hight which allows them to land safely.... you won't be nearly so accurate without the 1000's of jumps most tandem masters have. It will illustrate for you though how the canopy (even a big ass canopy) will surge towards the ground when you let up on the breaks quickly.

Just something to think about incase you were going to be in breaks low to the ground.

[lisamariewillbe 1]

Okay I understand what you all have said, and see why it is usefull. However since I have been doing this since jump 4 I have a few additional ?s and of course I will talk to an instructor who knows my abilties before attempting anything out of my norm.

First Ill give you the info, I was loaded at a .4 but have moved to a .6 which for me has given better control and the ability to actually fly the canopy instead of it flying me. Because I am on student gear and so tall I am hindered in what I can fly,

Now to the questions. Since I have been doing this braked approach what is a step to changing my depth perception on when to flare. I am not sure if I am asking this right, but I have gound fear and I think that is why I prefer the half brake approach because it gives me more time and less speed to comprehend the depths.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[Elisha 1]

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Personally, I'm more used to rear risers now than half brakes. Glide angle just seem a little more intuitive for me that way.

So is rear risers usually the best way to get back from a downwind long spot? I had two instances where I didn't quite make it (which the dzo got pissed at), but I think my WL was .75 and .91 respectively and now it is 1.05 (my own gear - and my "home" dz could be changing due to a possible closure), so I hope it won't happen again.

[nate_1979 9]

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Ya, I have seen that book, I might have to check it out. (I heard that Brian is pretty "deep" though. I guess it was still helpful info for you though, huh?)

VERY good book, first read it when I had less than 20 jumps... I've read it a few times, .... Really really good book.. That's all I got to say

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[Jeth 0]

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Note that if you let the brakes up quickly and go back into full drive your canopy will surge towards the ground momentarily as it picks up speed. If you do this too low you could seriously injure yourself.

Watch some tandems land and you may well will see them doing this, although they will do it at a hight which allows them to land safely.... you won't be nearly so accurate without the 1000's of jumps most tandem masters have. It will illustrate for you though how the canopy (even a big ass canopy) will surge towards the ground when you let up on the breaks quickly.

Just something to think about incase you were going to be in breaks low to the ground.

Yup, thanks, defintely will not do it too low. One of my instructors told me to start the breaks at like 300ft, and let up around 50ft. I was thinking that seemed kind of low if my canopy does surge forward. I will watch the tandems to see if they are in breaks when they come in.

"At 13,000 feet nothing else matters."
PFRX!!!!!
Team Funnel #174, Sunshine kisspass #109
My Jump Site

[billvon 2,998]

>So is rear risers usually the best way to get back from a downwind long spot?

Not really. Rear risers (and brakes) slow you down and thus both are inappropriate when you're downwind, unless the wind is _very_ light.

There's really not much you can do if you're downwind. First off, if you are backing up, get on front risers as hard and as long as you can. The less time you're in the air the less you will back up. Needless to say, choose an alternate if you're not going to make the DZ early enough so you can reach it.

If you are moving slowly forward, then you're already close to the canopy's maximum speed. Going to brakes or rear risers will slow you and could cause you to stop or back up (bad.) About all you can do is try to make your canopy a bit more efficient, and you can do that by killing your slider and pulling it behind you, sitting farther back in the saddle and pulling your legs up, and loosening your chest strap. This won't change your airspeed much but will change your L/D, so your horizontal component (i.e. speed towards the DZ) will increase a bit.

[Orange1 0]

Just another recommendation for the Germain book. The second part on the pyschology is very interesting, but the first part on canopy control alone is worth getting it for imho.

Elisha, I was taught that rear risers are the best way to make it back from a long spot, but also warned that it's far more tiring unless you happen to have strong upper arms! Luckily our spots tend to be pretty good here :-) (in my entire oh-so-extensive jumping career the only bad 'spot' i had was when i was first out on first load of the day and was the WDI discovering the upper winds )

edited to add: just saw that the question you asked was re downwind, so maybe disregard the bit above about the long spot... we generally get taught on a downwind long spot to look for a safe out

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Jeth 0]

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About all you can do is try to make your canopy a bit more efficient, and you can do that by killing your slider and pulling it behind you, sitting farther back in the saddle and pulling your legs up, and loosening your chest strap. This won't change your airspeed much but will change your L/D, so your horizontal component (i.e. speed towards the DZ) will increase a bit.

Ok, I have another question. I have heard people talk about putting the slider "behind your head", like you mentioned. I do stow my slider, but I don't think it can come down far enough to go behind my head. When I stow it, it is above my head, and thats where it stays. Maybe my risers are longer than everybody else's? Should I pull it over the risers? (Is that possible?)

"At 13,000 feet nothing else matters."
PFRX!!!!!
Team Funnel #174, Sunshine kisspass #109
My Jump Site

[billvon 2,998]

>Should I pull it over the risers? (Is that possible?)

That's what most people do. I pull it down and leave it behind my head. Others have devices on their jumpsuit or container to hold it _way_ down.

[AggieDave 6]

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Should I pull it over the risers? (Is that possible?)

It depends on what type of risers you have and if you have bumpers/slink hats installed. Mini-risers and slinks (or small rapid links) and you shouldn't have a problem doing so. Standard risers or bumpers or large rapid links or slinks with hats and you most likely won't be able to.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[craichead 0]

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Ya, I have seen that book, I might have to check it out. (I heard that Brian is pretty "deep" though. I guess it was still helpful info for you though, huh?)

Yes, read his book--it's extremely helpful for all skydivers, no matter what level they're at! Andy and I have a couple extra copies, and soarfree should have one from the course, too. LOL about Brian being "deep." He's zen, that's for sure. You remember meeting and talking with him during Spring Expo, right?

_Pm

__
"Scared of love, love and aeroplanes...falling out, I said takes no brains." -- Andy Partridge (XTC)

[Jeth 0]

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Ya, I have seen that book, I might have to check it out. (I heard that Brian is pretty "deep" though. I guess it was still helpful info for you though, huh?)

Yes, read his book--it's extremely helpful for all skydivers, no matter what level they're at! Andy and I have a couple extra copies, and soarfree should have one from the course, too. LOL about Brian being "deep." He's zen, that's for sure. You remember meeting and talking with him during Spring Expo, right?

_Pm

LOL, yep, I sure do!

"At 13,000 feet nothing else matters."
PFRX!!!!!
Team Funnel #174, Sunshine kisspass #109
My Jump Site