I'm confused about going to half brakes

[Jeth 0]

Ok. I think I have bumpers, but I'm not sure. I'll check next time. So I guess if it doesn't come down easily over them, it ain't gonna happen. Thanks.

"At 13,000 feet nothing else matters."
PFRX!!!!!
Team Funnel #174, Sunshine kisspass #109
My Jump Site

[AggieDave 6]

If you want to change that, please talk to your rigger.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[kevinwhelan 0]

I just looked at your profile and see you jump a pd 190 lightly loaded.
Well so do I, and if I open downwind of the target in any thing over 10 mph I am landing off. I find I have hardly any drive into the wind no matter what I do, If I have enough altitude front risers will get me some forward speed but at the cost of height and can mean one long final from opening to landing.
I usually land off in this situation if I see a big safe area

"be honest with yourself. Why do I want to go smaller? It is not going to make my penis longer." ~Brian Germain, on downsizing

[AndyMan 7]

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Others have devices on their jumpsuit or container to hold it _way_ down.

I see a lot of really ugly slider stowing techniques out there. I wonder if many of them would release if they have to cuttaway after they've stowed it. Of those that would release, it certainly would put them in unstable position as it tears out of the stow.

Brian Germain has come up with an ingenious way of stowing your slider at the base of risers. That way when you cuttaway the slider stow goes with your main. No hang-up issues. He calls the system "Slocks". Instructions for making a set are provided here: http://www.bigairsportz.com/article.php

I use them, and they work well.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[Jeth 0]

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I just looked at your profile and see you jump a pd 190 lightly loaded.
Well so do I, and if I open downwind of the target in any thing over 10 mph I am landing off. I find I have hardly any drive into the wind no matter what I do, If I have enough altitude front risers will get me some forward speed but at the cost of height and can mean one long final from opening to landing.
I usually land off in this situation if I see a big safe area

Wow! Glad to hear its not necessarily all me. Ppl look at me like I'm crazy when I talk about landing off in 13mph winds, but if I'm downwind it could easily happen!! I was wondering if my canopy was too big for me, but I know others at my WL who don't seem to have as much of a problem. Then I was wondering if it was F-111 vs. ZP. Maybe it is this canopy. Oh well. Guess I just need to keep flying it to learn how far I can actually go into the wind under it. (Hopefully I won't find myself downwind too often. )

"At 13,000 feet nothing else matters."
PFRX!!!!!
Team Funnel #174, Sunshine kisspass #109
My Jump Site

[AggieDave 6]

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Of those that would release, it certainly would put them in unstable position as it tears out of the stow.

Well, why do you think you would chop after stowing your slider? Most likely a canopy collision, right? Ever been in a wrap? Was it stable? Do you honestly think you'll be stable if you chop in that scenerio anyways?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[mdrejhon 8]

Some important corrections from PM I got:

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First of all “Half brakes” is not pulling the toggles half way down, it’s pulling them half way between full flight and the stall point. On some High Performance canopies that might be little more than pulling down to your ears! I would presume once you find the true halfway point that you will find canopy behavior more predictable between different rental gear.

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As for rear risers vs. deep brakes, brakes will win over rear risers almost every time! Rear risers feel like they are doing a better job because you instantly feel the change in glide ratio, they are not typically more efficient though.

There are probably different advantages and disadvantages to rears versus brakes, depending on what you're trying to do...

I'm sure it depends on canopy too...

[EvilLurker 2]

I have a rig with a PD-210, loaded at about .8:1 and it's like you're describing, if you go downwind in anything over about 10mph, you're pretty much screwed. I've landed that boat vertically with no flare and stood it up without taking a step a couple of times, it's a very low sink-rate canopy. Mine's got around 250 jumps on it, total, I imagine a ragged-out F-111 like that might not be as forgiving. Front risers into the wind don't buy you much, in my opinion, except you land short with tired arms.
A PD 9-cell will sure get you back from some long spots, though, I almost always go out last and never failed to get back (yet), even when I detoured to chase a guys cutaway main and watched it land. In their own way, they're great, but wind penetration is certainly not their strong suit. I still kinda love that big boat, though, I'm just careful that I don't get it downwind in anything over a gentle breeze.

[kevinwhelan 0]

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Then I was wondering if it was F-111 vs. ZP. Maybe it is this canopy.

I havent jumped a lot of zp canopies, because I like my f111 , but I have found a huge difference in them against the wind. The other thing I find is if I jump in winds over 20mph I land going backwards so now I ground myself in anything over 18mph

"be honest with yourself. Why do I want to go smaller? It is not going to make my penis longer." ~Brian Germain, on downsizing

[davelepka 4]

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Some important corrections from PM I got

Half brakes” is not pulling the toggles half way down, it’s pulling them half way between full flight and the stall point. On some High Performance canopies that might be little more than pulling down to your ears!

Who ever sent you that PM has been jumping some very poorly set-up HP canopies. Regardless of the canopies design or WL, the stall point should be at full arms extension (and I mean really reaching).

Any canopy who's half-way to stall is ear level has some extremely short brake lines, and needs to be fixed right away.

I would doubt the credentials and actual HP expreience of th eperson who sent you the PM, and I would suggest caution in following any of the other advice they gave.

[tso-d_chris 0]

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Regardless of the canopies design or WL, the stall point should be at full arms extension (and I mean really reaching).

No. Not all stall points are in the same place relative to arm position.

For that matter there can be a pretty large difference in toggle position at full arm extension between two jumpers, even of the same weight.

Arm position at stall point is a very poor way, IMO, of comparing two different canopies' landing characteristics.

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[Jeth 0]

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Then I was wondering if it was F-111 vs. ZP. Maybe it is this canopy.

I havent jumped a lot of zp canopies, because I like my f111 , but I have found a huge difference in them against the wind. The other thing I find is if I jump in winds over 20mph I land going backwards so now I ground myself in anything over 18mph

I jumped a Sabre2 190 all thru student training, so thats why I bought a 190. I never noticed a problem getting penetration into the wind with the Sabre2 like I do with mine. I also got a much better flare on that one. (Which I knew would happen switching to F-111) One other thing I didn't know -- my PD-190 has given me slammer openings every time. I just had a bigger slider made, but haven't tried it yet. I'm just wondering if those of you who have the F-111 PD canopies have slammers as well? (BTW, mine is nearly new with only 70-ish jumps on it)

I want to love my canopy, but its hard with the slammer openings, no penetration, and poor flare power.

"At 13,000 feet nothing else matters."
PFRX!!!!!
Team Funnel #174, Sunshine kisspass #109
My Jump Site

[EvilLurker 2]

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I'm just wondering if those of you who have the F-111 PD canopies have slammers as well?

Never. I've got a Dacron line set, though (original) and the original PC. I've never even had an opening I'd describe as "hard" on it. I've flat packed it and Pro packed it, both opened the same. Try the bigger slider, that's what I'd suspect first. I wouldn't say mine has "poor flare power", either. Have someone video your landings, being trained on ZP canopies you may need to modify your technique a little. With your wing loading you should be able to get a real nice landing.

[Jeth 0]

Well hopefully the slider helps. Thats good it doesn't happen to you. When I read the reviews of the PD I didn't see anything about it opening hard.

Ya, maybe its the way I'm flaring. I used to do a 1-2-3, and I got incredible lift with the 1. I'd hold that for a sec and then set myself down nice and soft with the 2-3. On this one, I was told to just punch it all the way down, so thats what I do. But I don't feel the lift like I used to, and I also seem to have more forward speed. I haven't stood any up under this one, I always slide it in. One problem is nobody at my dz (that I know of) has F-111, so I can't watch them or get tips from them on how to do it.

"At 13,000 feet nothing else matters."
PFRX!!!!!
Team Funnel #174, Sunshine kisspass #109
My Jump Site

[kelpdiver 2]

I had the same sense with PD-300s - they never opened slowly and it was a bit surprising going elsewhere and having the canopy snivel. Lots of bruises on the shoulders too.

[pilotdave 0]

My PD150 openings were always firm, but usually not HARD. Every once in a while I'd have a harder opening. Landings were just like you describe... at the right height, FLARE! I bought a sabre2 next and find it much easier to land... just keep flying it till I'm on the ground.

The PD flare takes much more timing to get right. Flare a little low and you'll hit a little hard. Flare a little high and you'll hit a little hard. Keep practicing and when you get tired of it, you'll probably be ready for something new (so you can relearn how to land all over).
Dave

[Jeth 0]

Thanks for the info. Ya, I always have bruises on my upper arms (right near the shoulder) and on my thighs. All my openings are VERY fast, and some spank me pretty good. My neck is usually sore. Tried a bunch of different packing techniques and packers, no change. Decided to go with the bigger slider. Hopefully it helps!

Ya, I do miss the flare of the Sabre2! But I intend on keeping this canopy awhile so hopefully I'll figure this one out eventually. Did you find that your best flare on the PD is the same height as you start on the Sabre2, or a little lower? I know I usually held the "1" on the Sabre2, so I may be starting this one too early. Thanks!

"At 13,000 feet nothing else matters."
PFRX!!!!!
Team Funnel #174, Sunshine kisspass #109
My Jump Site

[pilotdave 0]

The sabre2 has a huge range for where I can start my flare and still land nice and soft. If I flare high, I just flare slowly... come to a stop at 1 foot or less and just plop down softly. Or I can flare about the time my feet touch the ground. Just flare quicker and even pick my feet up if I have to.

So it's hard to say if one is higher than the other. Just takes practice... you should be reaching a full flare just about the time you touch the ground. Just gotta figure out what that height looks like.

Dave

[kevinwhelan 0]

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Ya, maybe its the way I'm flaring. I used to do a 1-2-3, and I got incredible lift with the 1. I'd hold that for a sec and then set myself down nice and soft with the 2-3. On this one, I was told to just punch it all the way down, so thats what I do.

On my pd I find the landings very nice i have stood up about 90%.
When I flare i dont "just punch it" I just keep applying more pressure to the toggles as I near the ground and try to keep a few inches from touchdown as long as I can.
I would imagine just punching down the toggles would need to be timed perfectly a little too high and you stall and drop, a little too low and you hit with too much speed.
If you gradualy apply brakes you can adjust the speed of you flare to suit your decent rate. just my thinking maybe someone with more experience can correct me if im wrong.

As for hard openings all mine have been very nice maybe you bigger slider will help yours

"be honest with yourself. Why do I want to go smaller? It is not going to make my penis longer." ~Brian Germain, on downsizing

[Jeth 0]

Thanks, guys! I think I definitely need to play with my flare more to find the right technique. Hopefully I will be standing them up soon!

"At 13,000 feet nothing else matters."
PFRX!!!!!
Team Funnel #174, Sunshine kisspass #109
My Jump Site

[Elisha 1]

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When I flare i dont "just punch it" I just keep applying more pressure to the toggles as I near the ground and try to keep a few inches from touchdown as long as I can.

Isn't this pretty much how most F-111's flare? My AFF rig was f-111 and I remember this is how I flared. Then, jumping the rental Sabre-190 and 170, it completely changed to the gradual, smooth flare.