Ron 10 #51 April 29, 2005 QuoteBut it's works sometimes:) PC also can be uncocked or be too small and didn't provide enough force and in this case even hit the bridle can help pin to get out... Or you could waste valuable time and die trying. Any idea how many people have died trying to "fix" something? At 120 MPH and with a large planet shapped object moving at you on an intercept course....It is not the time to try in air rigging. QuoteIf you pull out at proper altitude way not to try to recognize and fix mal for 1-2 sec? Again, you know how many people have died trying to do in air rigging?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWPoul 1 #52 April 29, 2005 QuoteOr you could waste valuable time and die trying. Any idea how many people have died trying to "fix" something? Have no idea... can only suppose that close to those who died not trying... QuoteAt 120 MPH and with a large planet shapped object moving at you on an intercept course.... He will turn aside first! QuoteIf you pull out at proper altitude way not to try to recognize and fix mal for 1-2 sec? Again, you know how many people have died trying to do in air rigging? Again no, only know few who didn't Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
apoil 0 #53 May 1, 2005 QuoteBy the time you realize you have a pilot chute in tow two things are true: A) If your main hasn't deployed it's not likely to after your reserve deploys. Quote Completely false. Safest is to say that there is a significant chance that it will, perhaps even 50/50. In my experience it is MORE likely that the main will deploy. It depends on the cause of the mal. In the case of pilot chute hesitation(caught in the burble) or a shrunken kill line or worn material, it is almost a certainty that the main will deploy. In the case of a misrouted bridle it's pretty certain that it wont. Other causes like closing loop way too tight could probably go either way. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites flyangel2 2 #54 May 2, 2005 QuoteA) If your main hasn't deployed it's not likely to after your reserve deploys. Nope, not true. You must not have read my post in this thread.May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jumpwally 0 #55 May 18, 2005 Out of curiousity,,,how much force does a PC in tow un-cocked have?smile, be nice, enjoy life FB # - 1083 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billbooth 10 #56 May 19, 2005 Not enough. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,989 #57 May 19, 2005 >how much force does a PC in tow un-cocked have? Depends. A friend of mine, Tom, once connected his brand new kill line PC incorrectly such that it killed as soon as it got to bridle stretch. His main still opened but it took a _long_ time (5+ seconds.) He made 4-5 jumps this way until someone realized what was going on. Another jumper, John, had an uncocked PC fail to open his main. He tried to pull on it. That opened the container but did not have enough drag to pull out the main. He opened his reserve. It fouled with the main. He then tossed the reserve freebag; that caught air and opened normally. (which was lucky.) A third jumper had an uncocked PC result in a baglock. We think that the PC had just enough force to pull the pin but not enough to lift the bag rapidly, so the lines "got above" the bag on deployment. So it depends on the size of your PC, the weight of your main, how tight your main is, how tight your closing pin is etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billbooth 10 #58 May 20, 2005 Of course, the best way to avoid a "non-cocked" pilot chute is not to use a collapsible pilot chute in the first place. But wait, that would force to jump a canopy with a sensible wing loading, which would make it a lot harder to kill yourself while trying to show off your new swoop technique to your friends...and what fun would that be. If you want to go fast by jumping a tiny canopy with micro lines and a collapsible pilot chute and slider, then you increase your risk of being hurt...pure and simple. High speed = high risk...whether it's cars, boats, parachutes, or women. Let me repeat myself: (Yes, I know I'm preaching) Jumping high performance gear increases your chance of dying. Please wait till you're ready, and get proper training. I, for one, am getting sick and tired of so many people getting hurt doing stupid things under "perfectly good" parachutes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites udder 0 #59 May 22, 2005 Bill, Is there any reason to have a collapsible pc on a lightly loaded canopy?"In one way or the other, I'm a bad brother. Word to the motherf**ker." Eazy-E Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billbooth 10 #60 May 22, 2005 If you talk to the canopy manufacturers, they would probably tell you that all canopies fly better with a collapsible pilot chute. However, with a wing loading of about 1:1 or less, the difference in performance is very little. Years ago, I jumped the same canopy (1:1 wing loading) with and without a collapsible, and measured forward speed. There was absolutely no difference. What I could not measure was the effect an inflated pilot chute has on a "swoop". It tends to distort the canopy at high speeds. The higher the speed, the more the distortion. So, if you jump around 1:1, and aren't into "swooping", a non-collapsing pilot chute is just fine. I jump a 190 silhouette with a non-collapser, and I see and feel no distortion. The malfunction that scares me the most is a collapsed pilot chute that has opened the container, but does not have enough drag to pull out the main. The very slight advantage a collapsible would give me is simply not worth the chance that it might also give me this dreaded malfunction. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydiverek 63 #61 July 13, 2005 QuoteI jump a 190 silhouette with a non-collapser, and I see and feel no distortion. Mr. Booth - do you jump a ZP pilot chute or F-111, and why? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,026 #62 July 13, 2005 QuoteIf you talk to the canopy manufacturers, they would probably tell you that all canopies fly better with a collapsible pilot chute. However, with a wing loading of about 1:1 or less, the difference in performance is very little. Years ago, I jumped the same canopy (1:1 wing loading) with and without a collapsible, and measured forward speed. There was absolutely no difference. What I could not measure was the effect an inflated pilot chute has on a "swoop". It tends to distort the canopy at high speeds. The higher the speed, the more the distortion. . In the steady state (not a swoop) I would expect extra drag to have more effect on descent rate than on forward speed, Bill.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Scrumpot 1 #63 July 13, 2005 Do you feel Bill, that in this situation it will have even enough drag force to cleanly separate the risers on a subsequent cut-away in this scenario? This is something I have been trying to envision since once catching (at a pre-boarding gear check) that my collapsable PC was indeed NOT cocked, as a "what if" ...but that I have not been able to fully reconcile. Any instances in your knowledge base of a jumper tossing his UNCOCKED main PC, extracting the pin maybe enough to get the container open & the bag & some lines out but NOT fully open the d-bag, then performing EP's? Would the risers successfully release in this scenario & the mess get out of the way in your opinion in this scenario, or maybe not? -Grantcoitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,026 #64 July 13, 2005 QuoteThe best answer is still PREVENTION. Checking for an ink stain on your kill line isn't enough, the ink stain on mine is all faded anyway. LOOK inside your pilot when you pack and make sure the kill line's extended inside your P/C. On the topic of prevention: When I bought a Birdman suit I had the "birdman mod" done to my container. If the pin pulls, there's no way the d-bag will stay in the container with this mod. Now, I could still be left with a bag lock...... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BenediktDE 2 #65 July 13, 2005 I learned "If something is out cut away and pull silver!" I'd pull silver without cutting away only is there is nothing out. (Hard pull, low emergency exit, hackey not found....)For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydiverton 0 #66 July 14, 2005 Correct, and even than there is nothing wrong with pulling red and silver. Very simple: 1 procedure, works always. At 120MPH there is simply no time to calculate the odds. For the people who think using only silver with a pilot over your head: http://www.dropzone.com/fatalities/Detailed/85.shtml Please convince me not to pull red first (Only real occurences that can be checked please, not oppinions) By the way I'm talking about sport rigs now, not tandem ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit, Especially when you are jumping a sport rig Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites xavenger 0 #67 July 14, 2005 > So, if you jump around 1:1, and aren't into > "swooping", a non-collapsing pilot chute is just > fine. I jump a 190 silhouette with a non-collapser > and I see and feel no distortion. It seems to me that PC in tow is something that, quite rightly, scares the bejesus out of most skydivers myself included. I was just about to write a post asking the question "Can't we go right to the root of the problem and just eliminate the PC in tow malfunction?" Then I read Bill's post, which is absolutely staggeringly, staggeringly obvious. Thanks Bill. That is as close to a solution as anyone needs. I am about to get new gear, not interested whatsoever in high performance canopy stuff, quite happy to stay at 1.1 forever (appreciate this opinion might change in the future) ... I am now getting a non collapsible PC. I hadn't even considered that is was available as an option because apart from on AFF rigs I don't think I have ever seen someone WITHOUT a kill line. It's amazing how stuff so rapidly becomes the norm even if it isn't in the best interests of most people. MOST PEOPLE DON'T NEED A COLLAPSABLE PILOT SHOOT WHATSOEVER - SO WHY THE HELL INCREASE THE RISK OF A NASTY MAL BY HAVING ONE. Responsible gear sellers should make this clear to people happy to fly lower wing-loading, thus further reducing the likelihood of a mal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RogerRamjet 0 #68 July 14, 2005 QuoteHow much force does a standard sized pilot chute exert on the bridle at terminal velocity? Anyone want to get a tension-meter and drive down the motorway to find out? How much force do you think you can put on the bridle with your arm twisting behind your back and pulling upwards away from your body? I'm guessing that manual intervention is negligible when compared with the overall PC drag force..... This is a very interesting thread. I decided to reply to your post based on the force question, but have some other things to add. When we came up with the hand-deploy pilot chute as it was first called, we had no idea what size it should be. Bill figured 36" would be about right (and as usual, his first thought was pretty darned good). We made 3 different sizes (30, 36, and 40 inch) and Bobby Grey and I took off down the road in a car with a fish scale in hand. All three ran the needle off the scale by 50mph (50) lbs scale (NOTE: I didn't have any trouble holding on to it, not easy, but doable). I jumped the 36" inch the next weekend and it worked fine and that's what we went with in production. A couple of months later, I ran across the 30" prototype and decided to try it. I had a PC in tow mal. Fortunately, I had pulled at 3500 (2000 was common then) and reached back and pulled the bridle loop free by hand. The bag took off SLOWLY and my main deployed around 2000'. To you who think this is a good idea, please note that I was watching the deployment since it was a TEST jump so knew I had a PC in tow instantly. The time to pull it loose and get under an open canopy took 1500 ft. How long do you suppose it would take when you're not expecting it? Let's take another really experienced, very aware jumper, Roger Nelson, who reeled a PC in tow in and note that as good as he is (was), he got his reserve open at 150'... http://www.cs.fiu.edu/~esj/uwf/uwf8.htm One thing I really agree with Bill Booth on (not just because I worked for him at one time The advice to take what you read here on the forums and discuss with your instructors is priceless! Anyone can write anything here, but your instructor knows you, your level of experience and capabilities, and your equipment. Ask them what will work for you and get them to explain why. Lastly, and this is a question for those who went through the transition to kill line PCs and such. I used a cotton deployment bag which would slide up the bridle on deployment and invert, covering the PC and thereby negating its drag. Is something like this not possible now? ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jumpwally 0 #69 July 14, 2005 Roger,,after looking at some old footage there was quite a bit of that inverted bag stuff going on...you are right, why wouldn't that work right now? anyone?.......wallysmile, be nice, enjoy life FB # - 1083 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RogerRamjet 0 #70 July 14, 2005 QuoteRoger,,after looking at some old footage there was quite a bit of that inverted bag stuff going on...you are right, why wouldn't that work right now? anyone?.......wally Here is a link to a picture of me 30 years ago under a Strato-Star with an orange cotton deployment bag which is inverted over the pilot chute: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/gallery/imageFolio.cgi?action=view&link=Personal_Galleries/RogerRamjet/Under_Canopy&image=Sturgis.jpg&img=&tt= I'm guessing no one is using cotton these days as it might not be so easy to stuff a ZP canopy into, I just don't know. I know the nylon bags I used were stiffer and would not invert (usually) like the cotton bag. ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 102 #71 July 15, 2005 QuoteCorrect, and even than there is nothing wrong with pulling red and silver. Very simple: 1 procedure, works always. At 120MPH there is simply no time to calculate the odds. For the people who think using only silver with a pilot over your head: http://www.dropzone.com/fatalities/Detailed/85.shtml Please convince me not to pull red first (Only real occurences that can be checked please, not oppinions) By the way I'm talking about sport rigs now, not tandem Why do you conclude that the outcome would have been different if the cutaway had been pulled first. Check out the link on post 7 of this thread. This issue is far from settled, and I think it is not right to assert that the answer is obvious.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 102 #72 July 15, 2005 That guy with the big beard had a decision tree on his website that advised going to silver, except for tandems. Unfortunately the link doesn't work anymore. http://www.relativeworkshop.com/tandem/presentations/sigma_files/frame.htm#slide0023.htmPeople are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydiverton 0 #73 July 15, 2005 QuoteQuoteCorrect, and even than there is nothing wrong with pulling red and silver. Very simple: 1 procedure, works always. At 120MPH there is simply no time to calculate the odds. For the people who think using only silver with a pilot over your head: http://www.dropzone.com/fatalities/Detailed/85.shtml Please convince me not to pull red first (Only real occurences that can be checked please, not oppinions) By the way I'm talking about sport rigs now, not tandem Why do you conclude that the outcome would have been different if the cutaway had been pulled first. Check out the link on post 7 of this thread. This issue is far from settled, and I think it is not right to assert that the answer is obvious. The text states clearly the main bag has been pulled out. and almost all stows were unstowed. That means there was tension on the lines (and risers) With red pulled first these 3-rings would disengage. The main bag and pilot (even if entangled with reserve bridle and pilot) would help opening the reserve. Increasing the chance of an open reserve. Still one point: Find me a fatality where someone pulled red first than silver when dealing with a PC in tow. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit, Especially when you are jumping a sport rig Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy_Copland 0 #74 July 15, 2005 I have been worrying about a pilot chute in tow, especially when on my first skydive i had slight line twists. My instructor has told me that i should roll gently side to side to create more air flow to my back, helping the main out. Now you gits have got me all worried!1338 People aint made of nothin' but water and shit. Until morale improves, the beatings will continue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RogerRamjet 0 #75 July 15, 2005 QuoteI have been worrying about a pilot chute in tow, especially when on my first skydive i had slight line twists. My instructor has told me that i should roll gently side to side to create more air flow to my back, helping the main out. Now you gits have got me all worried! Then do as several posters have advised, take the information you have read about here to your instructor and discuss it before deciding how you will handle this (or any) situation. He or she should be the one to help you set your EPs (whatever they may be) so they will be automatic when the time comes. ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 3 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. 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flyangel2 2 #54 May 2, 2005 QuoteA) If your main hasn't deployed it's not likely to after your reserve deploys. Nope, not true. You must not have read my post in this thread.May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpwally 0 #55 May 18, 2005 Out of curiousity,,,how much force does a PC in tow un-cocked have?smile, be nice, enjoy life FB # - 1083 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,989 #57 May 19, 2005 >how much force does a PC in tow un-cocked have? Depends. A friend of mine, Tom, once connected his brand new kill line PC incorrectly such that it killed as soon as it got to bridle stretch. His main still opened but it took a _long_ time (5+ seconds.) He made 4-5 jumps this way until someone realized what was going on. Another jumper, John, had an uncocked PC fail to open his main. He tried to pull on it. That opened the container but did not have enough drag to pull out the main. He opened his reserve. It fouled with the main. He then tossed the reserve freebag; that caught air and opened normally. (which was lucky.) A third jumper had an uncocked PC result in a baglock. We think that the PC had just enough force to pull the pin but not enough to lift the bag rapidly, so the lines "got above" the bag on deployment. So it depends on the size of your PC, the weight of your main, how tight your main is, how tight your closing pin is etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billbooth 10 #58 May 20, 2005 Of course, the best way to avoid a "non-cocked" pilot chute is not to use a collapsible pilot chute in the first place. But wait, that would force to jump a canopy with a sensible wing loading, which would make it a lot harder to kill yourself while trying to show off your new swoop technique to your friends...and what fun would that be. If you want to go fast by jumping a tiny canopy with micro lines and a collapsible pilot chute and slider, then you increase your risk of being hurt...pure and simple. High speed = high risk...whether it's cars, boats, parachutes, or women. Let me repeat myself: (Yes, I know I'm preaching) Jumping high performance gear increases your chance of dying. Please wait till you're ready, and get proper training. I, for one, am getting sick and tired of so many people getting hurt doing stupid things under "perfectly good" parachutes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
udder 0 #59 May 22, 2005 Bill, Is there any reason to have a collapsible pc on a lightly loaded canopy?"In one way or the other, I'm a bad brother. Word to the motherf**ker." Eazy-E Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billbooth 10 #60 May 22, 2005 If you talk to the canopy manufacturers, they would probably tell you that all canopies fly better with a collapsible pilot chute. However, with a wing loading of about 1:1 or less, the difference in performance is very little. Years ago, I jumped the same canopy (1:1 wing loading) with and without a collapsible, and measured forward speed. There was absolutely no difference. What I could not measure was the effect an inflated pilot chute has on a "swoop". It tends to distort the canopy at high speeds. The higher the speed, the more the distortion. So, if you jump around 1:1, and aren't into "swooping", a non-collapsing pilot chute is just fine. I jump a 190 silhouette with a non-collapser, and I see and feel no distortion. The malfunction that scares me the most is a collapsed pilot chute that has opened the container, but does not have enough drag to pull out the main. The very slight advantage a collapsible would give me is simply not worth the chance that it might also give me this dreaded malfunction. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 63 #61 July 13, 2005 QuoteI jump a 190 silhouette with a non-collapser, and I see and feel no distortion. Mr. Booth - do you jump a ZP pilot chute or F-111, and why? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #62 July 13, 2005 QuoteIf you talk to the canopy manufacturers, they would probably tell you that all canopies fly better with a collapsible pilot chute. However, with a wing loading of about 1:1 or less, the difference in performance is very little. Years ago, I jumped the same canopy (1:1 wing loading) with and without a collapsible, and measured forward speed. There was absolutely no difference. What I could not measure was the effect an inflated pilot chute has on a "swoop". It tends to distort the canopy at high speeds. The higher the speed, the more the distortion. . In the steady state (not a swoop) I would expect extra drag to have more effect on descent rate than on forward speed, Bill.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #63 July 13, 2005 Do you feel Bill, that in this situation it will have even enough drag force to cleanly separate the risers on a subsequent cut-away in this scenario? This is something I have been trying to envision since once catching (at a pre-boarding gear check) that my collapsable PC was indeed NOT cocked, as a "what if" ...but that I have not been able to fully reconcile. Any instances in your knowledge base of a jumper tossing his UNCOCKED main PC, extracting the pin maybe enough to get the container open & the bag & some lines out but NOT fully open the d-bag, then performing EP's? Would the risers successfully release in this scenario & the mess get out of the way in your opinion in this scenario, or maybe not? -Grantcoitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #64 July 13, 2005 QuoteThe best answer is still PREVENTION. Checking for an ink stain on your kill line isn't enough, the ink stain on mine is all faded anyway. LOOK inside your pilot when you pack and make sure the kill line's extended inside your P/C. On the topic of prevention: When I bought a Birdman suit I had the "birdman mod" done to my container. If the pin pulls, there's no way the d-bag will stay in the container with this mod. Now, I could still be left with a bag lock...... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BenediktDE 2 #65 July 13, 2005 I learned "If something is out cut away and pull silver!" I'd pull silver without cutting away only is there is nothing out. (Hard pull, low emergency exit, hackey not found....)For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverton 0 #66 July 14, 2005 Correct, and even than there is nothing wrong with pulling red and silver. Very simple: 1 procedure, works always. At 120MPH there is simply no time to calculate the odds. For the people who think using only silver with a pilot over your head: http://www.dropzone.com/fatalities/Detailed/85.shtml Please convince me not to pull red first (Only real occurences that can be checked please, not oppinions) By the way I'm talking about sport rigs now, not tandem ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit, Especially when you are jumping a sport rig Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
xavenger 0 #67 July 14, 2005 > So, if you jump around 1:1, and aren't into > "swooping", a non-collapsing pilot chute is just > fine. I jump a 190 silhouette with a non-collapser > and I see and feel no distortion. It seems to me that PC in tow is something that, quite rightly, scares the bejesus out of most skydivers myself included. I was just about to write a post asking the question "Can't we go right to the root of the problem and just eliminate the PC in tow malfunction?" Then I read Bill's post, which is absolutely staggeringly, staggeringly obvious. Thanks Bill. That is as close to a solution as anyone needs. I am about to get new gear, not interested whatsoever in high performance canopy stuff, quite happy to stay at 1.1 forever (appreciate this opinion might change in the future) ... I am now getting a non collapsible PC. I hadn't even considered that is was available as an option because apart from on AFF rigs I don't think I have ever seen someone WITHOUT a kill line. It's amazing how stuff so rapidly becomes the norm even if it isn't in the best interests of most people. MOST PEOPLE DON'T NEED A COLLAPSABLE PILOT SHOOT WHATSOEVER - SO WHY THE HELL INCREASE THE RISK OF A NASTY MAL BY HAVING ONE. Responsible gear sellers should make this clear to people happy to fly lower wing-loading, thus further reducing the likelihood of a mal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RogerRamjet 0 #68 July 14, 2005 QuoteHow much force does a standard sized pilot chute exert on the bridle at terminal velocity? Anyone want to get a tension-meter and drive down the motorway to find out? How much force do you think you can put on the bridle with your arm twisting behind your back and pulling upwards away from your body? I'm guessing that manual intervention is negligible when compared with the overall PC drag force..... This is a very interesting thread. I decided to reply to your post based on the force question, but have some other things to add. When we came up with the hand-deploy pilot chute as it was first called, we had no idea what size it should be. Bill figured 36" would be about right (and as usual, his first thought was pretty darned good). We made 3 different sizes (30, 36, and 40 inch) and Bobby Grey and I took off down the road in a car with a fish scale in hand. All three ran the needle off the scale by 50mph (50) lbs scale (NOTE: I didn't have any trouble holding on to it, not easy, but doable). I jumped the 36" inch the next weekend and it worked fine and that's what we went with in production. A couple of months later, I ran across the 30" prototype and decided to try it. I had a PC in tow mal. Fortunately, I had pulled at 3500 (2000 was common then) and reached back and pulled the bridle loop free by hand. The bag took off SLOWLY and my main deployed around 2000'. To you who think this is a good idea, please note that I was watching the deployment since it was a TEST jump so knew I had a PC in tow instantly. The time to pull it loose and get under an open canopy took 1500 ft. How long do you suppose it would take when you're not expecting it? Let's take another really experienced, very aware jumper, Roger Nelson, who reeled a PC in tow in and note that as good as he is (was), he got his reserve open at 150'... http://www.cs.fiu.edu/~esj/uwf/uwf8.htm One thing I really agree with Bill Booth on (not just because I worked for him at one time The advice to take what you read here on the forums and discuss with your instructors is priceless! Anyone can write anything here, but your instructor knows you, your level of experience and capabilities, and your equipment. Ask them what will work for you and get them to explain why. Lastly, and this is a question for those who went through the transition to kill line PCs and such. I used a cotton deployment bag which would slide up the bridle on deployment and invert, covering the PC and thereby negating its drag. Is something like this not possible now? ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpwally 0 #69 July 14, 2005 Roger,,after looking at some old footage there was quite a bit of that inverted bag stuff going on...you are right, why wouldn't that work right now? anyone?.......wallysmile, be nice, enjoy life FB # - 1083 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RogerRamjet 0 #70 July 14, 2005 QuoteRoger,,after looking at some old footage there was quite a bit of that inverted bag stuff going on...you are right, why wouldn't that work right now? anyone?.......wally Here is a link to a picture of me 30 years ago under a Strato-Star with an orange cotton deployment bag which is inverted over the pilot chute: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/gallery/imageFolio.cgi?action=view&link=Personal_Galleries/RogerRamjet/Under_Canopy&image=Sturgis.jpg&img=&tt= I'm guessing no one is using cotton these days as it might not be so easy to stuff a ZP canopy into, I just don't know. I know the nylon bags I used were stiffer and would not invert (usually) like the cotton bag. ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #71 July 15, 2005 QuoteCorrect, and even than there is nothing wrong with pulling red and silver. Very simple: 1 procedure, works always. At 120MPH there is simply no time to calculate the odds. For the people who think using only silver with a pilot over your head: http://www.dropzone.com/fatalities/Detailed/85.shtml Please convince me not to pull red first (Only real occurences that can be checked please, not oppinions) By the way I'm talking about sport rigs now, not tandem Why do you conclude that the outcome would have been different if the cutaway had been pulled first. Check out the link on post 7 of this thread. This issue is far from settled, and I think it is not right to assert that the answer is obvious.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #72 July 15, 2005 That guy with the big beard had a decision tree on his website that advised going to silver, except for tandems. Unfortunately the link doesn't work anymore. http://www.relativeworkshop.com/tandem/presentations/sigma_files/frame.htm#slide0023.htmPeople are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverton 0 #73 July 15, 2005 QuoteQuoteCorrect, and even than there is nothing wrong with pulling red and silver. Very simple: 1 procedure, works always. At 120MPH there is simply no time to calculate the odds. For the people who think using only silver with a pilot over your head: http://www.dropzone.com/fatalities/Detailed/85.shtml Please convince me not to pull red first (Only real occurences that can be checked please, not oppinions) By the way I'm talking about sport rigs now, not tandem Why do you conclude that the outcome would have been different if the cutaway had been pulled first. Check out the link on post 7 of this thread. This issue is far from settled, and I think it is not right to assert that the answer is obvious. The text states clearly the main bag has been pulled out. and almost all stows were unstowed. That means there was tension on the lines (and risers) With red pulled first these 3-rings would disengage. The main bag and pilot (even if entangled with reserve bridle and pilot) would help opening the reserve. Increasing the chance of an open reserve. Still one point: Find me a fatality where someone pulled red first than silver when dealing with a PC in tow. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit, Especially when you are jumping a sport rig Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy_Copland 0 #74 July 15, 2005 I have been worrying about a pilot chute in tow, especially when on my first skydive i had slight line twists. My instructor has told me that i should roll gently side to side to create more air flow to my back, helping the main out. Now you gits have got me all worried!1338 People aint made of nothin' but water and shit. Until morale improves, the beatings will continue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RogerRamjet 0 #75 July 15, 2005 QuoteI have been worrying about a pilot chute in tow, especially when on my first skydive i had slight line twists. My instructor has told me that i should roll gently side to side to create more air flow to my back, helping the main out. Now you gits have got me all worried! Then do as several posters have advised, take the information you have read about here to your instructor and discuss it before deciding how you will handle this (or any) situation. He or she should be the one to help you set your EPs (whatever they may be) so they will be automatic when the time comes. ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
