steve1 5 #1 April 7, 2004 A friend of mine has had an ongoing battle with the airport board at a municipal airport where we jump in Laurel, Montana. For whatever reason they want our club off the airport. My friend who owns the club has spent a lot of money on legal fees and has contacted the USPA but there seems little he can do to fight the decision to get rid of our club. My friend can't afford a million dollar insurance policy that is now required, so there is no longer going to be any jumping in our area. This same airport supported two jump clubs a few years ago. As it stands now there are only two remaining clubs in the entire state. I'm not really blaming the USPA, but I just wish they could do more to help. I hope this isn't a trend for the future, but it looks that way...Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rmsmith 1 #2 April 7, 2004 The future of the sport is probably private airfields with spartan amenities due to risk to capital investment. When I go skiing, I don't need a club membership, don't need a license (from a club?), don't need a RV because I can rent a really nice room right on the slope with a hot tub, cocktail lounge, and restaurant too. These extras add to the weekend get-away experience, IMHO. They offer all this despite being open only 5-months per year! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #3 April 7, 2004 The USPA is busy trying to build a museum to show what skydiving was...Since they are not doing anything to protect skydiving...We are going to need the museum to be able to look back at what we used to do. The USPA is worthless"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,558 #4 April 7, 2004 Sorry, i'm not sure whether you're joking or not, do you really want to pay ski resort prices for a weekend at the dz? Or should they make the hotel money elsewhere, like by selling that big expensive turbine?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BETO74 0 #5 April 7, 2004 I dont know if I should laugh or cry now....http://web.mac.com/ac057a/iWeb/AC057A/H0M3.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckbrown 0 #6 April 7, 2004 Quote The USPA is worthless Let's not forget the salaries they pay themselves to be worthless, as well as the fact that they decided to put their headquarters and museum in the most expensive real estate market in the nation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #7 April 7, 2004 QuoteQuote The USPA is worthless Let's not forget the salaries they pay themselves to be worthless, as well as the fact that they decided to put their headquarters and museum in the most expensive real estate market in the nation. I think anyone who lives in Virginia will tell you Fredricksburg isn't the most expensive real estate market in this area. Where USPA is currently located is among the most expensive, but we (USPA) own the office so it's a good thing because that area of Alexandria is appreciating probably 20-30% per year. Probably this biggest drawback to the Alexandria Office is high salaries due to the expensive cost of living here. I'm not too sure Chris Needels and any of the staff that moves to the Fredricksburg Office are going to reduce their salaris, though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrunkMonkey 0 #8 April 7, 2004 Additionally, the USPA is primarily a lobbying entity, hence the need to be in the high rent DC Metro Area. I doubt the Congresscritters and Bureaucrats who can end our rights to skydive would take the USPA as seriously if they were from some po-dunk town in the middle of nowhere. Add on the immense cost of business trips to DC for lobbying purposes if the USPA was not in Metro DC.... Don't be so myopic. There's more to the USPA than the museum and your DZ. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #9 April 7, 2004 QuoteAdditionally, the USPA is primarily a lobbying entity Which they have not done much at all in that area...When 911 happend the USPA called the AOPA...The AOPA got us flying again. QuoteI doubt the Congresscritters and Bureaucrats who can end our rights to skydive would take the USPA as seriously if they were from some po-dunk town in the middle of nowhere. About as serious as they take us now.....Hint they don't care. I know that Mullins offered the USPA some land in Memphis...for free. But Memphis is not as cool as DC. Also salarys in Memphis are MUCH less than DC. Enough so that it would help cover some of the travel fees. And the FREE land would go a long way as well. QuoteDon't be so myopic. There's more to the USPA than the museum and your DZ. Don't be so obtuse to not see that the USPA and the people in it are all about promoting themselves. They only care about the sport as much as it is a paycheck and some glory. Their actions...Or in most cases lack of actions hinder this sport. The reason they are in DC..They want to be. The reason that they don't get involved in small DZ issues...No glory in it. Thay have little control over anything in Congress. We as skydivers don't have enough of avoice to be more than a whisper in DC. The USPA should be spending its time trying to make the sport safer, and improving its image...They should be trying to make training programs match the real world issues. If the sport was safer we would not have some of the airport problems we have now. We would not have the giant insurance issues. A Museum is a giant waste of money. They would have done much better to create a portable display to be taken to State Fairs, Airshows...ect than a building in VA."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #10 April 7, 2004 QuoteAdditionally, the USPA is primarily a lobbying entity, hence the need to be in the high rent DC Metro Area. I doubt the Congresscritters and Bureaucrats who can end our rights to skydive would take the USPA as seriously if they were from some po-dunk town in the middle of nowhere. Add on the immense cost of business trips to DC for lobbying purposes if the USPA was not in Metro DC.... Don't be so myopic. There's more to the USPA than the museum and your DZ. I don't know what you read in my post that makes you think my view is myopic. I opposed the move to Fredricksburg for exactly the same reasons you just mentioned. I also fail to see how a Skydiving Musuem is going to be self-supporting and my concern is it will not be and eventually the USPA will take over its' operation to "preserve our history". I think a mobile skydiving museum which could be set up at various boogies or other special events would have made more sense. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckbrown 0 #11 April 7, 2004 Very few business entities move to DC to support their lobbying efforts; they hire DC lobbyists to represent them. What qualifies Needles to be a lobbyist -- his time as a Golden Knight? Sorry, that doesn't impress the bureacracy. Look at the results they got on the Virginia lawsuit ban. It blew up in their face. My membership money would be much better spent by contracting with professional lobbyists to deal with the FAA and Congress on specific issues as the need arises. There's also no reason for the administrative staff to be located in the metro DC area. Many major corporations are located in Po-dunk, specifically because of lower costs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 37 #12 April 7, 2004 USPA is NOT building a museum. The American Museum of Sport Parachuting is an independent corporation. Lowell Bachman of ParaGear is a principle. Both USPA and PIA have contributed funds to the corporation. The corporation has independantly purchased land NEXT to USPA's land in order to colocate. While the to building may eventually be joined for effeciency, the construction of the museum is several years away. The following quote is from Skyxtreme Vol. 6 - March 2000 - English Edition The Magazine from Skydive World http://www.skyxtreme.com/archive/march2000/features.html "The American Museum of Sport Parachuting Alexandria, Virginia -- The U.S. Parachute Association™ (USPA) and the Parachute Industry Association™ (PIA) are pleased to announce matching $25,000 grants to the American Museum of Sport Parachuting and Air Safety™ (AMSPAS) in order to launch the fundraising campaign for a museum dedicated to skydiving and skydivers. The AMSPAS, incorporated in 1986 as a 501(c)(3) not-for-profit association, will make a reality a decades old dream of establishing a museum for and about skydiving. The purposes of the Museum are to: promote public awareness and understanding of the sport of skydiving; recognize the contribution to skydiving by its participants, suppliers and supporters; capture and preserve forever the history of the sport through its events, equipment and personalities; and enhance aviation safety as it pertains to skydiving through research and education. As its initial step in the fundraising process, the trustees of the Museum have selected Goettler Associates of Columbus, Ohio to conduct the feasibility study and develop the case for support for the fundraising effort. As part of this process, Goettler Associates will conduct interviews of sport and industry leaders. Part of the long-term vision of the AMSPAS is to collocate the offices of skydiving related organizations into a national skydiving headquarters. The USPA has already approved in concept the collocation of its headquarters with the Museum, if a suitable site can be found. Full details of the proposed skydiving museum will be made available to the public following the conclusion of the fundraising feasibility study. Pending the establishment of its own home page and Internet site, please refer inquiries to Museum@uspa.org. U.S. Parachute Association, USPA, and the USPA Wings logo are all trademarks or registered trademarks of the U.S. Parachute Association. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners."I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #13 April 7, 2004 Agreed. Additionally, there's something about this deal on the land that just doesn't sit well with me although I can't recall the specific details right now. Didn't they originally say it would cost $150,000 for one acre and then announce later the price had doubled? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrunkMonkey 0 #14 April 7, 2004 Gravitymaster-myapologies. I did not direct the "myopic" comment at you personally. I meant it towards that the sentiment that the USPA is "useless" because they "Allowed" the small DZ in question to be forced off, and that the geographic location is wasteful. If they moved their Hq to a van down by the river, and saved us five bucks a year, would that alleviate all the concern? I doubt it. Every Parachutist issue has a "Capital Commentary" column, which shows that not only is the USPA a regulatory body, but also a legal lobby which keeps the FAA and the rest of Big Brother away from our sport. Start a petition to move USPA Hq to Minot, ND...I doubt it'll fly... Again, apologies for any confusion. No flaming here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #15 April 7, 2004 QuoteUSPA is NOT building a museum Yes but this is the part that bothers me: QuoteBoth USPA and PIA have contributed funds to the corporation And this part: QuoteThe corporation has independantly purchased land NEXT to USPA's land in order to colocate How about this: QuoteFull details of the proposed skydiving museum will be made available to the public following the conclusion of the fundraising feasibility study. Pending the establishment of its own home page and Internet site, please refer inquiries to Museum@uspa.org. Sure seems like the USPA is REALLY involved. And this makes me feel good: QuoteU.S. Parachute Association, USPA, and the USPA Wings logo are all trademarks or registered trademarks of the U.S. Parachute Association. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners." My real question is this...When the museum does not support itself (And it will not). Is it going to: A. Close and sell the land that it shares with the USPA. B. Have the USPA save it using money that would be better spent on training and yes, even lobby efforts. We all know it will be "B" that happens."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CDRINF 1 #16 April 7, 2004 QuoteWhat qualifies Needles to be a lobbyist -- his time as a Golden Knight? Sorry, that doesn't impress the bureacracy. Chris Needles is a retired U.S. Army Colonel and served as a military assistant on the National Securtiy Council during the 1st Bush administration if memory serves me correctly. Is that good enough for you? CDR Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckbrown 0 #17 April 7, 2004 No. Not to take anything away from his service to his country, I fail to see how that qualifies him to be a lobbyist for the skydiving industry, or any industry associated with aviation. Now if he was an aviation attorney with experience representing clients before the FAA in both regulatory and adjudicative matters, I'd have a different opinion. USPA's track record isn't that great when it comes to representing the interests of the majority of DZs. On an aside, I recently e-mailed USPA regarding FAA regulations on parachute operations conducted off DZ, specifically as they relate to taking CRW formations low on demos. USPAs response was no problem (or to be fair their response was the SIM doesn't prohibit it). Well, just to cover my ass, I kept doing research, and, lo and behold, there is a specific FAA policy regarding CRW formations and demos, one which can prohibit the activities which USPA said weren't prohibited by the SIM. This was a really piss poor response from an entity which is in the business of representing skydiving interests before the FAA. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 37 #18 April 7, 2004 Quote[My real question is this...When the museum does not support itself (And it will not). Is it going to: A. Close and sell the land that it shares with the USPA. B. Have the USPA save it using money that would be better spent on training and yes, even lobby efforts. We all know it will be "B" that happens. First, the museum and USPA will not SHARE land. That's like saying that a McDonald's and a Burger King who happen to be adjacent "share" land. USPA owns land, and the Museum corporation owns land, each separately. Who cares if a different office building ends up next to USPA if the museum proves unworkable? USPA has been a minor contributor to the museum's fundraising efforts. That's it. USPA bought their land independantly and before the museum decided to buy adjacent land. Have they been talking? Sure. It only makes sense to coordinate the national organization head quarters and the museum of the sport. PIA is the major other player in the museum, and a major contributor. You can decide not to like the monetary contributions that USPA has made, but USPA is not "building," "funding," "doing," the museum. Supplying a email forwarding address is hardly "REALLY" involved. You can be pissed at USPA, but you need to find another reason. That USPA protects its name and logo should make you feel good.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #19 April 7, 2004 QuoteAdditionally, the USPA is primarily a lobbying entity, hence the need to be in the high rent DC Metro Area. I doubt the Congresscritters and Bureaucrats who can end our rights to skydive would take the USPA as seriously if they were from some po-dunk town in the middle of nowhere. Add on the immense cost of business trips to DC for lobbying purposes if the USPA was not in Metro DC.... Pop quiz: 1 - How many USPA staffers are tasked with serving as the organization's government relations interface? Hint: What's his name? 2 - How often do you think he meets face to face with congressmen/senators/bureaucrats? Hint: A LOT of governmental communication is done by e-mail or other written media 3 - When our representative does meet face-to-face with government types, what percentage of the time is it at 'our' place as opposed to 'theirs'? Hint: They don't care where his office is, they care where their office is FYI - USPA is NOT "primarily a lobbying entity." Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 6 #20 April 7, 2004 QuotePop quiz: 1 - How many USPA staffers are tasked with serving as the organization's government relations interface? Hint: What's his name? 2 - How often do you think he meets face to face with congressmen/senators/bureaucrats? Hint: A LOT of governmental communication is done by e-mail or other written media 3 - When our representative does meet face-to-face with government types, what percentage of the time is it at 'our' place as opposed to 'theirs'? Hint: They don't care where his office is, they care where their office is FYI - USPA is NOT "primarily a lobbying entity." Blues, Dave OOOooo...ooooooo! I know the first one. Ed Scott. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #21 April 7, 2004 QuoteA friend of mine has had an ongoing battle with the airport board at a municipal airport where we jump in Laurel, Montana. For whatever reason they want our club off the airport. My friend who owns the club has spent a lot of money on legal fees and has contacted the USPA but there seems little he can do to fight the decision to get rid of our club. My friend can't afford a million dollar insurance policy that is now required, so there is no longer going to be any jumping in our area. This same airport supported two jump clubs a few years ago. As it stands now there are only two remaining clubs in the entire state. I'm not really blaming the USPA, but I just wish they could do more to help. I hope this isn't a trend for the future, but it looks that way...Steve1 Another of my expensive hobbies is flying R/C model airplanes and helicopters. I am Assoc. VP of the national model aviation organization (AMA), and we arrange liability insurance for member clubs that indemnifies the landowners against third party claims (most model clubs do not own their own land). I can't imagine that the risk of damage from a wayward skydiver exceeds that from a wayward model airplane doing 150mph or an out of control model helicopter with a rotor turning at 2000rpm. It costs my model plane club $40/year for it's $2M landowner's liability insurance. Surely USPA can come up with a similar scheme.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vertifly 0 #22 April 7, 2004 QuoteThe USPA is worthless Well, they put out a pretty good magazine and send me a sticker every year (unfortunately, it is the SAME sticker every year). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WrongWay 0 #23 April 7, 2004 QuoteThe USPA is busy trying to build a museum to show what skydiving was...Since they are not doing anything to protect skydiving...We are going to need the museum to be able to look back at what we used to do. The USPA is worthless And thank you for your brutally honest opinion as always. I couldn't have said it better myself. Wrong Way D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451 The wiser wolf prevails. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
f1shlips 2 #24 April 7, 2004 One thing about the USPA.. it doesn't make me put my number on my canopy or rig thereby runing my "paint job". Quotean out of control model helicopter with a rotor turning at 2000rpm. You've seen me fly?-- drop zone (drop'zone) n. An incestuous sesspool of broken people. -- Attributed to a whuffo girlfriend. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #25 April 7, 2004 QuoteOne thing about the USPA.. it doesn't make me put my number on my canopy or rig thereby runing my "paint job".Quote In order to secure a place to jump I'd be willing to mark my rig with an ID number if that was a condition. Quotean out of control model helicopter with a rotor turning at 2000rpm. You've seen me fly? That bad, eh? Must get expensive. The cheapest RC heli crash sets you back about $100. I've had one where the largest surviving piece was the engine.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
