Landing on your rear risers

[weid14 0]

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A guy at Cross Keys died trying it last summer.

His name was Seth Karp. Like most of us I think he deserves more than "A guy at Cross Keys".

Jim

He also deserves a lot more than saying that he died attempting a rear riser landing because that is not at all what he did.

It is not even what was SPECULATED (and ALL we have on that incident is speculation) that he did.

What was SPECULATED was that he may have been flying with rear risers not realizing that a toggle had become unstowed, and that when he went for the toggles his canopy went into the hard spiral that he was unable to stop or correct.

well, your speculation is incredibly off base.... since I was flying next to him under canopy, I can tell you with 100% certainty that isn't the case.

[Tonto 1]

"if you don't think/can't land your canopy on rear risers, it's probably too small for you. Why? Because you don't have control over it in all phases. There's more to flying that pulling toggles, ask any CReW dawg or qualified HP canopy pilot about that! "

Oh, crap! I have 3000 + swoops and National colours in CReW.

On a competition Rotation dive, if you had broken a brakeline, would you continue to rotate? If not, does this mean you cannot fly? Would you attempt to land ANY competition Rotation canopy on rear risers? Your canopy has been compromised. It is a malfunction. That's why there is a throwaway round.

As for swoopable rags, if you expect me to land a canopy loaded to 1.7+ 5000ft AMSL and over 100 d F on the back risers through traffic when I'm due on the next load and have 20 dives manifested for the weekend - you're a nutter. Yes, reserve mals may happen - but then again they may not. If you don't believe in your reserve - you have no place skydiving. I have 19 reserve rides off 17 chops,(remember the Crew...) so far, so good. Control check, not good, chop, land, put on other rig, go to boarding point. By the time I land my toys are gathered and 3 loads later the reserve is repacked and I have no scrapes or bruises to show.

I don't give a flying monkey's toe what you think. Not wanting to land a canopy which is damaged has NOTHING to do with being able to fly it under all conditions. Write the manufacturer of ANY canopy and ask if its ok to land it without brakes. What would they say?

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[rigging65 0]

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"if you don't think/can't land your canopy on rear risers, it's probably too small for you. Why? Because you don't have control over it in all phases. There's more to flying that pulling toggles, ask any CReW dawg or qualified HP canopy pilot about that! "

Oh, crap! I have 3000 + swoops and National colours in CReW.

On a competition Rotation dive, if you had broken a brakeline, would you continue to rotate? If not, does this mean you cannot fly? Would you attempt to land ANY competition Rotation canopy on rear risers? Your canopy has been compromised. It is a malfunction. That's why there is a throwaway round.

As for swoopable rags, if you expect me to land a canopy loaded to 1.7+ 5000ft AMSL and over 100 d F on the back risers through traffic when I'm due on the next load and have 20 dives manifested for the weekend - you're a nutter. Yes, reserve mals may happen - but then again they may not. If you don't believe in your reserve - you have no place skydiving. I have 19 reserve rides off 17 chops,(remember the Crew...) so far, so good. Control check, not good, chop, land, put on other rig, go to boarding point. By the time I land my toys are gathered and 3 loads later the reserve is repacked and I have no scrapes or bruises to show.

I don't give a flying monkey's toe what you think. Not wanting to land a canopy which is damaged has NOTHING to do with being able to fly it under all conditions. Write the manufacturer of ANY canopy and ask if its ok to land it without brakes. What would they say?

Actually, if you read the whole post, what you'd find is that I wasn't referring to the need to be able to land a damaged canopy. I was referring to the need to have control of the canopy in all aspects. In fact, I made a very clear statement that, IMO, you should be able to land your canopy on rear risers "at a time and in conditions of your choosing".

This has nothing to do with flying damaged canopies, and I couldn't agree more with you about ditching a bad canopy. You're right, that's why we have reserves.

Landing a canopy on rear risers, again IMO, is pretty much the ultimate show of control. Before you all goes nuts, yes there are many different ways to show control...but think about it, rear riser landings are pretty tough to time and gauge. If you can pull them off, you're showing good overall ability and skill...something I think many young canopy pilots simply jump right over as they want to go faster without actually being able to "fly" their wing.

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[billvon 3,000]

>As for swoopable rags, if you expect me to land a canopy loaded to
> 1.7+ 5000ft AMSL and over 100 d F on the back risers through traffic
> when I'm due on the next load and have 20 dives manifested for
> the weekend - you're a nutter.

Of course; that's a bad time to both try it for the first time and/or try it even when you know how to do it. But what happens when you set up for a hook turn, yank down a brake line, and it comes off in your hand? At that point you have three options:

-steer with rear risers and try to land without a flare (injury almost guaranteed)

-cut away at 200 feet. Death almost guaranteed.

-land with rear risers.

Can you do it? Only one way to find out - do it. Pick a perfect day; one with not much traffic, sea level, a steady strong wind, and soft ground. Try landing with rear risers a few times. If you can do it with no problem, you may now survive that broken brake line on a 100 degree day at 5000 feet if you lose a brake line at 200 feet. If you can't do it, you will find out under perfect conditions, and your "pain" will be a PLF and a muddy jumpsuit. Then when that day comes at 5000 feet, you may well choose a no-flare landing, or even chance a cutaway at 500 feet AGL. Since you know what to expect you can make a better decision about it.

If your canopy is so small that you are terrified to even try this, then upsizing is a very good idea. It's not a good idea to jump a canopy that you can't land with rear risers even in _perfect_ conditions. Conditions aren't always perfect and brake lines don't always break above 1600 feet.

> Not wanting to land a canopy which is damaged has NOTHING to do
> with being able to fly it under all conditions.

But knowing if you _can_ land a damaged canopy has everything to do with being able to fly and land it under all conditions. And knowing if you can land it puts you in a very good position to make a decision.

>Write the manufacturer of ANY canopy and ask if its ok to land it
> without brakes. What would they say?

I did. Chris Martin of Ground Zero/Precision said, and I quote, "a broken brake line is a foolish reason to cut away." He says that their canopies (the Xaos, Nitron etc) can be landed safely with rear risers - depending on experience and training of course.

On the other hand, try writing the manufacturers of your harness and reserve and ask them if it's OK to use them for jumps exceeding 170mph. They will likely mention that that exceeds the TSOed limits of their rigs/reserves. Does that mean that you won't ever freefly?

[fundgh 0]

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Can you do it? Only one way to find out - do it. Pick a perfect day; one with not much traffic, sea level, a steady strong wind, and soft ground.

Now that I have the conditions to try it, what is the best way to go about your first rear riser landing...How high to start the flare, how deep to pull risers, how fast to pull risers? How much beer to buy? Any advise would be helpful.

...FUN FOR ALL!

[AggieDave 6]

You need to play with the feel of it up high. You do NOT want to treat your RR the same as your brake toggles. They take less input to do more.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[diablopilot 2]

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If you don't believe in your reserve - you have no place skydiving.

There is a difference between having reasonable confidence in your reserve functioning, and using it when it may not be warranted. If I had that kind of faith, I wouldn't need a reserve, just a main I trusted 100%. Doesn't exist. I've chopped once, when I was a student. That means I have a pretty good track record with main canopies (i.e. 1 mal in 2200jumps) Most over 1.6, and many over 2.0). However I am not ready to give up that reserve on my back.

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As for swoopable rags, if you expect me to land a canopy loaded to 1.7+ 5000ft AMSL and over 100 d F on the back risers

These are valid criteria for making a decision about a malfunction.

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through traffic when I'm due on the next load and have 20 dives manifested for the weekend

These are not.

Each jumper should make a decision about their abilities. I happen to agree that most jumpers that say they would be unwilling to land on rears for a broken brakeline (with a controlable canopy otherwise) have not explored their canopy's ranges yet. Please notice that I did not say ALL jumpers.

I have little experience on CReW canopies, however I believe I would still land the lightnings I've jumped on risers if needed.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[fundgh 0]

I figured so much, I play with them alot upstairs. Unless I accidentally grab the toggle, I try to play with rear while the breaks are stowed. Then release the breaks for control check and mess with rears again for a bit. It seems like landing on rears would be FAST! Am I wrong...I guess that is why a headwind would be good for practice. Should I be ready for a fast PLF? I want to know what I am getting into before I go biffin'

...FUN FOR ALL!

[rigging65 0]

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Now that I have the conditions to try it, what is the best way to go about your first rear riser landing...How high to start the flare, how deep to pull risers, how fast to pull risers? How much beer to buy? Any advise would be helpful.

Rear riser landings (especially on HP canopies, which is how I've explained the landing sequence below) are something that take some timing and practice. I've found it's best to start by getting a feel for stall point up high (it's obviously a shorter stroke than on your toggles...duh...but you need to know where it is and build the muscle memory to know when you need to stop pulling). Bigger canopies will generally let you get away with just "flaring" (as opposed to transition flaring btwn risers and toggles) on rear risers, but sometimes not...and you'll still never pull the risers down more than a few inches.

From there, try a straight in approach using your rear risers (with hands still in toggles!) to plane the canopy out (like you would use the top half of your flare), then transition to toggles for actual flaring. A word of caution: There is some lag between when you come off the risers and get into the breaks (because of the different stroke lengths), so you might try the first couple of landings by coming off the risers a bit higher than you would think...say 10 ft or so?

Once you can get the transition smoothed out, take the release point a bit lower, then a bit lower, until finally you're not actually transitioning to breaks at all.

Just in case this isn't clear, you really need a nice smooth landing strip to come in on. We have an asphalt strip with light gravel spread across it...works great...smooth grass areas also work well. This is important because you're not getting much breaking effect from landing on rear risers, you're just planing the canopy out and keeping it running. And trying to run out a 25mph. landing sucks, so most guys slide it to a stop. Something to thing about with HP canopies!

Just because I live In California, I'll throw this in:
NO ONE SHOULD EVER TRY REAR RISER LANDINGS AS THEY WILL MOST LIKELY CAUSE INJURY OR DEATH. I AM IN NO WAY ADVOCATING REAR RISER LANDINGS AND TAKE NO CREDIT OR BLAME IF YOU'RE STUPID ENOUGH TO TRY ONE! With that said, have fun and be safe!

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[relyon 0]

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On a competition Rotation dive, if you had broken a brakeline, would you continue to rotate? If not, does this mean you cannot fly? Would you attempt to land ANY competition Rotation canopy on rear risers? Your canopy has been compromised. It is a malfunction. That's why there is a throwaway round.

If it's competion you can bet I'd continue to rotate! Rear riser over the back and front riser in. Save the throwaway for the cutaway after the wrap on the over-amp round.

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As for swoopable rags, if you expect me to land a canopy loaded to 1.7+ 5000ft AMSL and over 100 d F on the back risers ...

I know some rotation competitors who've rear-riserd short-lined Lightnings in these conditions. I'd do it myself provided I had some experience with normal landings at that altitude.

Bob

[Tonto 1]

And I've had that happen, 1998 in the turks and Caicos islands, and Rick Highsmith (from Daytona) was my witness - and was not caught in the corner, hit the water a little heavy, skipped to the beach and run up a dune - I survived, loaded to 1.65 and sea level on a sunset dive.. but I would not like to try it again.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Tonto 1]

"I have little experience on CReW canopies, however I believe I would still land the lightnings I've jumped on risers if needed. "

There is a world of difference between a PD lightening sequencial canopy and rotation rags like Rubis, AR-7 and Matrix. Loaded to rotation wingloadings, you would be a nutter to try it - and your team would agree.

It's the year of the Pig.

[relyon 0]

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There is a world of difference between a PD lightening sequencial canopy and rotation rags like Rubis, AR-7 and Matrix. Loaded to rotation wingloadings, you would be a nutter to try it - and your team would agree.

I know rotation competitors that land shortlined (8') heavily loaded (1.8+) sequential trimmed Lightnings at 5000+ AGL. They've done it on rear risers a number of times as well (I have closer to sea level). It does take some skill but it's not that big a deal.

Bob

[Skylark 0]

Newbie question: When people talk about landing on their risers, do they mean using their rear risers to steer their canopy? Does on simply pull down on them like one would their toggles? For some reason I wasn't taught anything about this during AFF.

"Into the dangerous world I leapt..." William Blake, Songs of Experience

[PhreeZone 20]

Yes, the rear risers are much more sensitive then the toggles are though. Try it up high on your next skydive. Quit playing by 1800 feet though.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[BenGriffiths 0]

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Newbie question: When people talk about landing on their risers, do they mean using their rear risers to steer their canopy? Does on simply pull down on them like one would their toggles? For some reason I wasn't taught anything about this during AFF.

Using your risers in basic turns means pulling down on them. Pull you left to turn left and your right to turn right . Riser control is a long subject but the best adivce is just play around - ABOVE YOUR SAFETY MARGIN

When you learn to control a canopy using riser you soon realize you've got six points of control rather than just two.

I wasn't taught about riser control on either of my 1 jump courses.

Learn how to use your risers - for example if when you open your directly facing another canopy. You've got a choice either:
a) Unstow a toogle and initiate a turn
b)Go directly to you rear riser and make a turn
N.B. Turn the the right as a avoidance maneuver as is the standard in aerial procedures

----------
Ben G
Still Sinking :-(

[rigging65 0]

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For some reason I wasn't taught anything about this during AFF.

You weren't taught about using them because it's more information than what you really need for the first jump course. As you continue, you'll get more information about riser control (if you don't, ask for it!).

Landing on your rear risers is a touchy issue and shouldn't be tried unless you've received training on it. The stall point is much higher than on toggles...like maybe only 6-10 inches of stroke on the risers as opposed to several feet on toggles.

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[grue 1]

I apologise for reviving a long-dead topic, but...

How about going for water? I know at my DZ, we've got a decent pond on the other side of the highway (2 lane, tiny ass road), and chances are if I can make the DZ, I can make the pond. In a situation like that, is there any reason not to cut the line and ride the toggles, then disconnect the RSL and go for a water landing? Granted, I don't have water training yet, but taking into consideration the fact I'm a lifeguard, I suspect I could handle the in-water part of the situation.

cavete terrae.

[kelpdiver 2]

a bad landing that knocks your breath away could be fatal, even for a lifeguard. Chopping to the reserve seems safer.

BTW, you can do the water training anytime. I did mine even before the A.

[grue 1]

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a bad landing that knocks your breath away could be fatal, even for a lifeguard. Chopping to the reserve seems safer.

BTW, you can do the water training anytime. I did mine even before the A.

Yeah, we're actually going to do this year's training at the pool that I run. Fairly convenient for me

cavete terrae.

[Squeak 17]

Moreover, at what point should one start to learn rear riser approaches?
One of the HP canopy pilots at my DZ, when asked this just said, you dont need to do rear riser approaches Squeak.

So other than in an emergency (not when I want to learn somthing) when should someone start to use Rears on finals??

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[billvon 3,000]

>I suspect I could handle the in-water part of the situation.

I would hesitate to combine the problems of a new, untried flare (i.e. potential for a stall) and a first time water landing. One of the rules I live by is "one new thing at a time," a first-time rear riser landing seems like a bad time to try your first water landing.

OTOH if you've done water landings before (the NRGB is a great place to practice these) then it might be a good option, provided there were no other issues (like swift or shallow water.)

[parachutist 2]

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So other than in an emergency (not when I want to learn somthing) when should someone start to use Rears on finals??

I think it's best to practice up high until you feel that you fully understand the stall point with the rears and you know that you will not stall your canopy down low. Next practice rear riser flares up high, not getting to the stall point... hold it for a few seconds, or until you feel that you're nearing the stall point... immediately transition to toggles. Make it nice and smooth.

30+ jumps or so later, after you're comfortable with the feel of these maneuvers... Then during a jump if you're coming in for final approach... nobody's around, clear open landing area in front of you... 50 ft... reach up and put your hands on your rear risers. Wait.. wait... 12 ft.. pull down a little (1-2 seconds), then release the rear risers (hands still in toggles) flare with your toggles now.

You can ease into it like this. (A little this time.. maybe a little more next time that you have a great landing setup) . Whenever you reach up for your rear risers with your toggles in hand, please keep a bit of your attention on those toggles, making sure that you will not let go of those toggles when you release the rear risers. I have seen too many highly experienced people do this and have very hard landings as a result, because they dropped 1 toggle as they released the rears and flared.

Chris W.

[Avion 0]

Durning my RR flare practice up high with my Spectre 210, I find I can pull them down almost a foot and get a good swing forward under the leading edge of the canopy. When I pull a little more, maybe to 14 16 inches, it feels like I get a slow sink. Then, as I pull a little farther maybe 18 inches, I feel a definate drop while the canopy starts to flap from the tail forward as it goes into a RR stall.

I'm still a little concerned about getting tense, pulling them too far and stalling when landing, if I'm still going downward or forward fast as I approach touch down. More practice huh?

[marks 0]

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Let's say you have a stuck brakeline and have to cut it. Would you land your main on the rear risers or would you go for the reserve?
And what kind of canopy (high performance or not) would you do it on?

i would land on rears, because i know i can. even on a very high performance canopy.

but if i didnt know i could i would chop it.. and i have before, when i still had less than 300 jumps.