Can you be overly cautious/too safe?

[Newbie 0]

What i mean is, can worrying excessively about safety in some context perhaps make you less safe? This is an odd question i know, and i don't know what the answers are, but i just figure i sometimes obsess about safety to the point where i have thought "can this be detrimental in some way?".

An example might be the perceived safety of thinking you HAVE to land into wind overriding the problems associated with a low turn to get into that pattern in the first place. I know this is more about education, but it's only through education that someone who is otherwise taught "always ensure you are landing into wind to be safe" and thinks that this is the safe thing to do, then learns "...unless you have to make a low radical turn to do so, in which case the safety of landing into wind is overridden by the benefit of taking a down/cross winder" etc.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[Mike111 0]

My JM told me worrying about that could go wrong too much would make things go wrong - cause me to panic and then screw up.

he said making sure you are prepared is a good thing, but it is good to be positive. He also said be flexible - the situation changes so if one has a rigid approach to it then one is leaving themselves to potential risk.

With regard to the landing - I had that problem almost - i started my final approach too low and thought "shit im gna hav to turn dunno what to do ahahahah" but then just took a quick deep breath and prepared to land crosswind. But forunately i got into the correct position and landed without problem.

Not panicking then helped cos i was very tempted ot do a low turn but thought otherwsie thankfully

[phoenixlpr 0]

Make a good plan, and execute it! Have a backup plane too.

My problems use to come along with the poor execution of my original plane.

[artistcalledian 0]

i recently changed my order on a complete rig, i went BIGGER on my main than i had ariginally ordered, that was due to the advice i was given on here... when i talked to my instructor, who is also the guy i ordered the stuff off... he told me straight that i was wrong to be cautious and his recommendation (smaller chute, bigger wing loading) was correct

he can think that for all i care, i'm glad i took the advice of people on here and i'll jump with it feeling alot happier now

________________________________________
drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police

[Newbie 0]

Interesting. What was his reasoning for stating he was right and you were wrong?

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[katzurki 0]

Quote

i recently changed my order on a complete rig, i went BIGGER on my main than i had ariginally ordered, that was due to the advice i was given on here... when i talked to my instructor, who is also the guy i ordered the stuff off... he told me straight that i was wrong to be cautious and his recommendation (smaller chute, bigger wing loading) was correct

he can think that for all i care, i'm glad i took the advice of people on here and i'll jump with it feeling alot happier now

He was probably joking, you just took it too seriously. Really, can't you tell when a person is having a simple, light-hearted joke at you?

[popsjumper 2]

I'd say congrats to artistcalledian...I sincerely hope that the instructor wouldn't joke about that especially to the point of actually accepting the order for the smaller chute in the first place.

I do hope that the instructor knew enough about the skills to be able to safely recommend the smaller.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[marks 0]

Quote

i recently changed my order on a complete rig, i went BIGGER on my main than i had ariginally ordered, that was due to the advice i was given on here... when i talked to my instructor, who is also the guy i ordered the stuff off... he told me straight that i was wrong to be cautious and his recommendation (smaller chute, bigger wing loading) was correct

he can think that for all i care, i'm glad i took the advice of people on here and i'll jump with it feeling alot happier now

there are situations that he would be correct. if you would like to discuss it, p.m. me the wing size and your exit weight, and where you jump and iwill explain it to you.

[davelepka 4]

Quote

can worrying excessively about safety in some context perhaps make you less safe

An example might be the perceived safety of thinking you HAVE to land into wind

If you spend time worrying about your example, that is detrimental, as your example is not a safe practice.

You cannot spend enough time worrying about actual safety. For example, it is not safe to jump with your legstrap hardware improperly threaded. You should never reach the point where you don't worry about that. Never.

There will be times where you'll need to take a chance on more flexible issues, such as canopy sizing. It's always the safer bet to stay on a bigger more conservative wing, but at some point, you will be ready to downsize to soemthing more fun. In these cases, the amount of worry that you put into it a personal decision. When YOU are ready, proceed forward. If you don't feel confident going in, it will effect your performance in your new endeavor.

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

..You cannot spend enough time worrying about actual safety. For example, it is not safe to jump with your legstrap hardware improperly threaded. You should never reach the point where you don't worry about that. Never.

But...but...I all the time see the big boys getting on the plane without even having their legs in the legstraps!
What's up with that?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[artistcalledian 0]

nope, he wasn't joking there is a whole thread on my escopade trying to get it changed LOL

________________________________________
drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police

[Mike111 0]

Well congrats for standing up for youself mate, especially when you didn't feel comfortable
(b)

[Ron 10]

Can you be too safe?

NO. Constant dillegance is needed to stay in this sport for a long time.

After a while superior skills can take the place of nazi like safety practices, but that does not mean it is a good thing.

There is a point of being AFRAID of the sport that is bad. And I think this might be what you are talking about.

War story time: When I was working on my pilots license my flight instructor Dan and I were in the pattern. I had about 4 hours and just gotten my medical (Which you need to solo) and after the first landing I stoped in front of the FBO, turned to Dan and said, "Get out". He laughed at me and said , "nope, take it around". This continued for the next two landings....On the third, he got out. I lined up on the runway and knew at that second that I had soloed....I WAS going to put the power in, and I was going to take off, there was no turning around. So I did it.

Days later I was hanging around at the Airport and he asked me if I wanted to ride with another student and him in a 172....Wanting to be airborn I jumped at the chance. This guy had 25 hours and had not soloed. I later asked Dan why I had soloed at 4-5 hours and this guy took 25.

He replied to me that the other guy was scared, not confident at all.

I aksed him about me...He said that I was confident, but not over confident...Well maybe a little.

He also told me that he would rather have guys like me than the other guy. If *you* are not confident in yourself, why should an Instructor be confident in you?

The ideal mix is a person that is confident, but LISTENS when he is being taught. Not a brash overconfident knowitall.

So confidence + open ears= perfect.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[JohnMitchell 16]

I've known a lot of overly cautious people who were just afraid of the sport, but probably rationalized it as being safety minded. Some of their safety practices approach superstition, IMHO. Many of them blindly follow all rules, but maybe don't think about the why's, and don't realize that legal and safe may overlap, but are two different things. True safety comes from locating and evaluating the risks, then doing your best to reduce your risks through better technique, training, and equipment.

[brianfry713 0]

For me I enjoy trying new things, but only once I know I'm ready for them. I know some skydivers that refuse to freefly, never night jump, never want to swoop, never BASE, or only from bridges. I think that's fine for some people, but part of becoming a better skydiver is to push your limits. Of course we all have our own risk / reward tradeoffs and limits.

By practicing things like a cross wind or down wind in the right conditions, you'll be more ready for it when the conditions arn't right and more likely to walk away from it.

BASE 1224, Senior Parachute Rigger, CPL ASEL IA, AGI, IGI
USPA Coach & UPT Tandem Instructor, PRO, Altimaster Field Support Representative

[phoenixlpr 0]

Quote

I know some skydivers that refuse to freefly, never night jump, never want to swoop, never BASE, or only from bridges.

Like me. I don't freefly, because my VectorII is not safe for FF.

[kelpdiver 2]

I think the biggest risk is that you spend so much time fixating on one real or perceived threat that you get caught off guard by another.

My closest motorcycle accident came early on when in heavy traffic I was paying too much attention to the tailgater behind me, almost missed the fact that the cars in front of me stopped moving.

[nathaniel 0]

Quote

What i mean is, can worrying excessively about safety in some context perhaps make you less safe?

Anxiety attacks and panic attacks can definitely cloud your judgement, as can tunnel vision & target fixation.
There's a subtler aspect of too much safety as well, in that most of us don't pursue safety as a pure end but rather as something complementary to our skydiving activities. If you pursue too much safety you'll wind up skydiving less or not at all.
Considering that skydiving is outright a dangerous thing to do... if all you were concerned about is safety then you wouldn't be skydiving at all.
Likewise if you insist on skydiving only when the conditions are safest, eg the weather is 100% clear, 4-6 mph winds from your preferred direction & only within 2 or 3 days of a light rain so the ground is soft etc etc you'll find that you won't have many opportunities to skydive at all.
And depending on your income situation, if you spend all your money on all the latest gadgets, audibles, cutaway systems, gear designs and brightest colors there may not be room in your wallet for skydiving either.

My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?

[quade 4]

There is a spectrum of caution from paranoia to carelessness.

In order to actually be a skydiver and not simply a piece of jettisoned cargo, you have to fully understand the risks involved and deal with them. I think it's safe to say that anyone that was truly paranoid of skydiving probably can't actually be a skydiver because at that point thay'd simply choose not to participate.

On the other end are the careless individuals that by sheer luck remain not quite yet formed craters in search of GPS coordinates.

In between the two and what I consider to be the real skydivers are the people that look at the risks and manage them.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[azureriders 0]

Just my opinion, but the answer lies within the diffentions of the words used in this thread.


From Encarta ® World English Dictionary

cautious: a general term for being aware of potential risk and modifying your behavior accordingly

planning: a method of doing something that is worked out usually in some detail before it is begun and that may be written down in some form or simply retained in memory

evaluate: to consider or examine something in order to judge its value, quality, importance, extent, or condition

diligence: persistent and hard-working effort in doing something

saftey: protection from or nonexposure to the risk of harm or injury

confidence: a belief or self-assurance in your ability to succeed

worry: a troubled state of mind resulting from concern about current or potential difficulties

anxiety: nervousness or agitation, often about something that is going to happen


In your diligent effort to be safe, you can never be overly cautious, nor over plan or evaluate the risks of skydiving. Now, if you can not over do these things, how do you know when you have done them enough? When you are confident enough that you do not worry nor fell anxiety.

I think sometimes worry, which is a bad thing, is mistaken for cautious planning, which is a great thing.

[billvon 3,070]

> Can you be overly cautious?

Absolutely. In some ways it can be as dangerous as pushing limits. The example I see most often are people who are terrified to do anything but make gentle turns under canopy and land straight in. Nothing wrong with doing that most of the time, but in order to learn how to fly your canopy, you sometimes have to be a bit more aggressive, and learn things like flare turns, flat turns, rear riser landings etc.

This can all come to a head one day when you find yourself flying towards a barbed wire fence. The overly cautious person who has never pushed their canopy has two choices - turn low (and likely hammer in) or land in the fence. A jumper who has pushed their canopy a bit harder may have an additional option, which is to flat turn away.

Now, it could be argued that someone who learns to fly their canopy in a gradual progression, from a coach, is actually the more cautious of the two. That's a semantic difference that's not worth arguing about. Suffice to say that never doing anything that comes close to pushing your limits will result in a less educated (and in many ways less safe) skydiver.

[Newbie 0]

Quote

Suffice to say that never doing anything that comes close to pushing your limits will result in a less educated (and in many ways less safe) skydiver.

I think this was what i was getting at. How then, as a safe skydiver, do you know when you are on the right, cautious side, of pushing yourself and educating yourself, compared to crossing over the line and into the (potential) danger zone of doing something outside of your scope of ability? The only markers i use are the advice of experienced jumpers (which can sometimes be flimsy, depending on who you speak to) and my gut instinct on whether im going outside the boundary....but then my instinct is very subjective, because it's how I feel about my ability.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[quade 4]

I was a flight instructor for many years before ever becoming a skydiver and the one thing I came to recognise was that good judgement couldn't actually be taught. It come from experience and hopefully in small steps and not all at once.

The issue is that nature and other outside factors will catch up with you from time to time. You want to have enough experience to know what to do when so that when the time comes for that experience envelope to be pushed by those outside factors you'll have the judgement and skills to be able to deal with the issue.

This is among the reasons that, for instance, a PRO rated skydiver has to be able to make a stand up landing on a relatively small target. Most of his actual PRO jumps won't require anything even close to having to be able to have this sort of skill level, but it's the margin of error which should enable him to deal with some of those outside factors.

A person needs to be able to -objectively- look at their experience level and skills and decide if they still have a reasonable margin of error so, should an outside factor that can be reasonably expected to happen occur, they'll still survive.

That's what risk management is all about.

What causes the majority of engineering disasters is a lack of imagination. Not thinking about some outside factor and how it might affect the project; how does wind blowing over a bridge interact with it or how cold can it be before an o-ring becomes brittle or what is the effect of a 5 pound piece of styrofoam detaching itself from a rocket during takeoff. If it doesn't hit the rocket it's pretty harmless, but what happens if it hits the leading edge of the wing?

Anyway, my point is you really do need to THINK about how you're going to handle a lot of situations. There will always be those things that happen that we simply could not foresee, but you'd be amazed at the number of accidents that happen simply because somebody didn't think something fairly trivial through to its logical conclusion.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Newbie 0]

Thanks good food for thought.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[Paige 0]

Quote

i recently changed my order on a complete rig, i went BIGGER on my main than i had ariginally ordered, that was due to the advice i was given on here... when i talked to my instructor, who is also the guy i ordered the stuff off... he told me straight that i was wrong to be cautious and his recommendation (smaller chute, bigger wing loading) was correct

he can think that for all i care, i'm glad i took the advice of people on here and i'll jump with it feeling alot happier now

I was cautious as you describe and ended up in the hospital broken because I was underloading my canopy. I listened to people who 'knew' what they were talking about but they had never seen ME fly a canopy. The others who had seen me fly (less known canopy pilots however, def. not experts) said I should have been on a smaller canopy and I agree completely. Hind sight is 20-20. Bigger isn't always better

Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate
www.TunnelPinkMafia.com