robinheid 0 #76 July 20, 2010 Quote Quote I just don't get it: why do you so stubbornly refuse to do a basic "best practices" study of other risk sports and how they handle young participants? Robin - you seem to feel a real need to have this research done and you seem to be a forerunner of the "open access" debate. Why, then, don't you do the research into other sports' practices for involving minors and report the findings to the skydiving community rather than repetetively asking others to do the research? As nice as it would be, I think it's a candle-in-the-wind proposition. N I'd be happy to do the research. The moment PIA and/or USPA sends me a retainer, I'll get started immediately. SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.) "The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,009 #77 July 20, 2010 >why do you peeps so stubbornly refuse to do a basic "best practices" >study of other risk sports and how they handle young participants? Probably for the same reason you stubbornly refuse to do any work at all to support your assertion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #78 July 20, 2010 QuoteI just don't get it: why do you so stubbornly refuse to do a basic "best practices" study of other risk sports and how they handle young participants? Do you think you are accomplishing anything by continually repeating this same line over and over, and calling people "stubborn" because they disagree with you? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
robinheid 0 #79 July 20, 2010 Quote Quote I just don't get it: why do you so stubbornly refuse to do a basic "best practices" study of other risk sports and how they handle young participants? Do you think you are accomplishing anything by continually repeating this same line over and over, and calling people "stubborn" because they disagree with you? If that's what you think I'm saying, then let me rephrase so it's more clear: I just don't get it: why does our "industry" so stubbornly refuse to do a basic "best practices" study of other risk sports and how they handle young participants when best practices studies are a proven method through which mature corporations and industries improve their operations, reduce their risk, and increase their profits? SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.) "The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #80 July 20, 2010 Most the Motocross courses and tracks around here are no longer allowing minors on their courses. I have almost 50 tracks in my state alone and only about 6-8 of them will allow minors on them and then have placed strict limits on the course and the size bike the riders are allowed to ride on. The Waiver that minors sign are different then the one everyone else signs and requires notarization or both parents to be present. Some tracks and trails even have a waiver that you have to sign if all you are doing is coming to watch and will not be on a bike. Liability is catching up to those other activities also.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gemini 0 #81 July 20, 2010 Each states rules may be significantly different relating to waivers, minors and such. What applies in CO has no direct relationship to what applies in TX. In my state, even if the parents sign the waiver for a minor the minor is not bound by the waiver and he, as a minor, cannot waive his own rights. If a minor jumps and is injured, any interested party (usually an attorney, CPS, etc.) could intervene and sue me on behalf of the "unprotected" minor. Why is the minor unprotected, because his parents tried to waive his rights and are "unsuitable" as parents to do the right thing for the minor and as an adult I can take actions to protect a minor in TX. In a lot of the other high risk sports you have companies with no assets that are probably judgement proof or you have mega corporations that own the company and who can afford to fight any number of lawsuits. I am not willing to risk everything to let someone under 18 jump and I really don't care what the BSR does or doesn't limit related to a minimum age for skydiving. Until the legal atmosphere changes, I will not change. You wouldn't be so insistent if you had everything you own at risk. Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
robinheid 0 #82 July 20, 2010 Quote Most the Motocross courses and tracks around here are no longer allowing minors on their courses. I have almost 50 tracks in my state alone and only about 6-8 of them will allow minors on them and then have placed strict limits on the course and the size bike the riders are allowed to ride on. The Waiver that minors sign are different then the one everyone else signs and requires notarization or both parents to be present. Some tracks and trails even have a waiver that you have to sign if all you are doing is coming to watch and will not be on a bike. Liability is catching up to those other activities also. good info, PZ. that's what I'm talking about. We need a lot more of course but this is how best practices studies work. SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.) "The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
robinheid 0 #83 July 20, 2010 Quote You wouldn't be so insistent if you had everything you own at risk. What i am insistent upon is that we actually look before we leap on this one. we don't usually jump before figuring out the wind, spot, obstacles and so forth because it is not a best practice to do it that way, so why does our industry insist on doing this "jump" with its eyes closed? A best practices study simply looks at what those in related industries are doing, thereby providing a database upon which we can draw in designing our own best practice. All I keep hearing from the "ageist" element on this thread is about how much they think they know from inside their little box instead of looking at the bigger picture and learning as much as possible about the issue before going out the door. SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.) "The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 806 #84 July 21, 2010 "we don't usually jump before figuring out the wind, spot, obstacles and so fort"This "we" damn sure does. This isn't about best practices, this is about liability and legalities. Worlds apart really. All but three states consider 18 to be the age of majority. The three that do not are 21. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skypuppy 1 #85 July 22, 2010 I agree with robin here. I think 3 of the guys on our national 4-way team did their first jumps (tandems)in single digits (younger than 10). By the time the last one turned 16 I believe he had a couple of hundred jumps, and with the tunnel time he had, he moved right into a slot on the 4-way team. Way to go.If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SansSuit 1 #86 July 24, 2010 More importantly, the Competition Committee had discussed and decided against establishing any nude state records !! According to the Chair, "I don't think we are ready for it yet." Peace, -Dawson. http://www.SansSuit.com The Society for the Advancement of Naked Skydiving Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
