Broken Suspension Lines

[bluewaterstream 0]

Choose one answer for each situation:

1 broken suspension line = ?

2 broken suspension lines = ?

3 broken suspension lines = ?

4 broken suspension lines = ?

5 broken suspension lines = ?

[billvon 2,995]

Same for all of them. If I can control it and I can flare, I would land it. You can break 3-4 lines if they are in just the right place (outer but not most outboard D lines) and still have reasonable control, but just break one outer A line and you will likely have to chop it.

If you do decide to chop ensure that the broken lines are free of your body and rig.

[mjosparky 4]

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Same for all of them. If I can control it and I can flare, I would land it. You can break 3-4 lines if they are in just the right place (outer but not most outboard D lines) and still have reasonable control, but just break one outer A line and you will likely have to chop it.

If you do decide to chop ensure that the broken lines are free of your body and rig.

The same forces that caused the lines to break may have done damage to the canopy that is not apparent. It may fly just great until 500 feet. Just something to think about.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[ZigZagMarquis 9]

Ya know... seems to me, this topic has appeared in one way or another in several threads... it also seems to be a frequently asked question by many novice jumpers; that's a good thing, the more you learn and are currious about in this sport the better off you are...

Frankly, I'm not I can say exactly what I would do if I broke 1, 2, 3... more lines on my main on opening. I've had 2 malfunctions in my jump career... #1 - A Line Over... #2 - An SBOS, so it is a situation I haven't personally been faced with.

From my experience... a couple of things to consider...

1) I've seen more then one person come down, gather up their canopy, walk back to the packing area, drop their stuff and start packing only to discover a broken line that they didn't notice before... thus, the canopy obviously flew & flared just fine.

2) I've seen people land canopies with obviously broken lines... canopies the "flew" & "turned", but when they went to flare, the canopy just shut down and they thumped in... in some cases, just bumps and bruises, in others broken bones. So what's my point, just because the canopy will "fly" with broken lines, doesn't mean it will "flare"... so it would be advisable when doing those controlablity checks on a canopy with broken lines, cut to the chase and try to flare it up high and see what it does.

3) I think Sparky said it... soemthing like... under canopy is not the time to do rigging... think about it.

So, what is my plan you may ask? Well, if I get open and notice a broken line (lines ?)... if I note that AND the canopy is deformed or spinning, I'm probably going to chop it and go reserve and sort it out later. If it is flying, the first controlability check I'll do is try flaring it... and then make decissions from there depending on how it behaves.

One parting thought... one of the worst things that can happen to you skydiving is to look up at your main right after opening and think, "What the F*ck is that?"... this should be an indication to you that you need not panic, but should start dealing with the situation in an immediate manner.

[FrogNog 1]

In addition to the controllability/landability check, I also have the "ugly check". If my stomach ever turns looking at what's left of my canopy, it doesn't have long to "get all better" before I chop it.

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[ZigZagMarquis 9]

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In addition to the controllability/landability check, I also have the "ugly check". If my stomach ever turns looking at what's left of my canopy, it doesn't have long to "get all better" before I chop it.

I hear that!

[JohnMitchell 16]

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2) I've seen people land canopies with obviously broken lines... canopies the "flew" & "turned", but when they went to flare, the canopy just shut down and they thumped in... in some cases, just bumps and bruises, in others broken bones.

That would be me, one time, broken A-line on an old DC-5. Flew okay til I flared and stalled prematurely. Good PLF but I still ended up on crutches. Another jumper broke their back with the same situation. Other times prevously I had landed broken lines, no problems.

Now I chop.

[tdog 0]

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2) I've seen people land canopies with obviously broken lines... canopies the "flew" & "turned", but when they went to flare, the canopy just shut down and they thumped in... in some cases, just bumps and bruises, in others broken bones.

That would be me, one time, broken A-line on an old DC-5. Flew okay til I flared and stalled prematurely. Good PLF but I still ended up on crutches. Another jumper broke their back with the same situation. Other times prevously I had landed broken lines, no problems.

Now I chop.

So guys, educate me... I have done hundreds of practice flares up high - and many full stalls high up... If I had a broken line or two, and I did a full flare before chop-altitude... How likely would it be that I "feel" the flare is "defective" or "stalling"???

I.E. Can you "test" a canopy with broken lines accurately so you don't get one of the hard landings posted on this thread???

Call me silly, but in the back of my mind I always wonder if the reserve will be any better... Seems I would keep a canopy that "felt" normal even with a few lines, but I may be wrong to think that, huh???

[sundevil777 102]

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How likely would it be that I "feel" the flare is "defective" or "stalling"???

You may be able to feel it, but I suggest also looking up during the flare to see how it behaves.

The only broken lines I experienced included an outer A line. The canopy was turning fast and left no doubt that it had to go.

I did have a 5 foot long fore-aft rip in my bottom center cell. It flared OK up high and did not descend faster than other nearby canopies, so I kept it and had a very nice stand up landing.

In the good-ol-bad-ol-days, you were left to contemplate whether you would have a worse landing under your round reserve or your partially malfunctioned main.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[mjosparky 4]

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So guys, educate me... I have done hundreds of practice flares up high - and many full stalls high up... If I had a broken line or two, and I did a full flare before chop-altitude... How likely would it be that I "feel" the flare is "defective" or "stalling"???

I.E. Can you "test" a canopy with broken lines accurately so you don't get one of the hard landings posted on this thread???

Call me silly, but in the back of my mind I always wonder if the reserve will be any better... Seems I would keep a canopy that "felt" normal even with a few lines, but I may be wrong to think that, huh???

T,

There are just too many variables to give a cut and dry answer. When and if you are ever confronted with a situation of a similar nature it is going to be your call. You will be the only one around to make that decision.

I know this doesn't help much, but it is all about learning everything you can about gear in general and your gear in particular. Never quit trying to learn what makes gear work and not work.

And never delay EP because you do not trust your reserve. If you do not have faith in your reserve, get a different one or a different rigger. Better yet, become a rigger and pack your own.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[tdog 0]

Sparky,

Thanks for your reply.

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There are just too many variables to give a cut and dry answer. When and if you are ever confronted with a situation of a similar nature it is going to be your call. You will be the only one around to make that decision.

You are right... And previously, I would have “instinctively” made that decision based upon the following tests, which would have occurred in the first 10-20 seconds, maybe much quicker if one failed:

1) Hands free, how does it fly. (Assuming no brake fire, if it flies straight or near straight, continue to step two)
2) Pop brakes, full speed how does it fly.
3) Full flare, how does it fly.
4) Full flare held for a while (near stall) – how does it fly.
5) Back to full speed quickly, how does it fly.

-BUT-

This thread has me wondering, from your and other comments:

1) What happens if there is damage unseen, like a top of a cell about ready to rip off at 500’. This is the hardest part of the equation for me right now… I guess I would have to go on a gut feeling….. Did the canopy open “normal” or “abnormal”. How hard was the opening? What did it look like as it opened???

2) Without reference points (like the ground) – will I “know” how the thing is really flying during the tests? Could the flare be really inefficient, but feel fine at altitude. I previously thought I would “know” since I have done a lot of high pulls with my canopy and done a lot of “what happens if I do this” type things…

If nothing else, this thread has moved my awareness to be more likely to chop a canopy with broken lines… At first I thought – “even if half are broken and it somehow keeps it shape and flies, why chop?” My attitude has become a little more aggressive thinking this thru…

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I know this doesn't help much, but it is all about learning everything you can about gear in general and your gear in particular. Never quit trying to learn what makes gear work and not work.

I agree… I have always been the guy who takes a perfectly working piece of equipment and takes it apart to see how it works… In fact, I became mechanically inclined at an early age when I had to “fix” the things I “broke”… Thank god the reserve is sealed and the cypress is hidden from my tools...

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And never delay EP because you do not trust your reserve. If you do not have faith in your reserve, get a different one or a different rigger. Better yet, become a rigger and pack your own.

Very good point… I thought someone would “call me” on my comment… I have 100% faith it will operate like a very well packed parachute – which means it still might not work at all. I guess my point is, I would not (and have not) choped EVERY abnormality just because it is abnormal… Fair, right??? Oh, and I watch my rigger pack. I am 100% confident that he is a trained professional (7,000 mains under his belt, and hundreds of reserves) and can do a better job than me – so I actually will stick with (watching) the rigger instead of becoming one myself, at least for a while – especially for the “faith in it working” factor…


Thanks again for your incite.

[riggerrob 643]

Since I have experienced more than my fair share of tandem reserve rides (14), do you guys mind if I beak off about damaged F-111 tandem mains (Strong 425 and 520)?
I got so tired of tandem reserve rides that I developed my own criteria for evaluating damaged mains.

1. Is it rectangular?
If it is anything worse than a closed end cell, I get rid of it.

2. Is it flying straight?
If I have to pull a toggle below shoulder level to keep it flying straight I get rid of it.

3. Does it turn normally?

4. Does it flare normally?
If the canopy turns significantly during a practice flare, I get rid of it.
If the canopy starts collapsing during a practice flare, I get rid of it.
If the canopy stalls with my hands above my belt, I get rid of it.

A broken D line is no big deal.
However, a broken A line will cause the canopy to stall way too early, and flare miserably.
Any broken A line is grounds for cutting away.

By the same token, a broken upper steering line is no big deal.
However, I would not waste any time with a broken lower control line. Since I do not have enough arm muscle to rear riser flare a tandem with a heavy student, there is not much point to wasting my strength ... Once I identified a broken lower control line, my next action was to start peeling the red handle off my harness.

Holes in the bottom skin are no big deal. I have landed several tandem mains with the bottom skin torn from nose to tail. Aside from minor turns, they flew and flared fine.
However, holes in the top skin are far more scary. Air escapes through holes in the top skin, making the canopy wildly unpredictable near the stall. One time a small hole (less than a yard long, 1 meter) released so much pressure that the canopy egg-rolled when I practiced flaring.
"Grab red handle, etc."

Holes through both top and bottom skin are grounds for immediately peeling both handles off your MLWs.
Hee!
Hee!

[tdog 0]

Thanks for the info about the "A"s being a bigger deal than the "Ds"...

What about the Bs and Cs? Do they behave more like the Ds or As...

[chutem 0]

Slightly off topic, If you haven't seen it there is a very cool "gameshow" video where Jeff Provenzano cuts suspension line after suspension line after missing questions from the MC while under canopy. He gets quite a few of them cut befor it spins up. Of couse he is cutting the ones he wants. I don't know where to find this vid on the internet. (skydivingmovies.com maybe) If you find it it's worth a watch. I was very surprised how long it kept flying.
James

[ryoder 1,590]

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Thanks for the info about the "A"s being a bigger deal than the "Ds"...

What about the Bs and Cs? Do they behave more like the Ds or As...

The A lines are much more critical because they keep the leading edge of the wing in position. As long as the leading edge is straight, the wing has a chance of being flyable. The relative wind from the forward flight is hitting the wing head-on at the leading edge. A broken "A" line may allow the relative wind to fold the leading edge over or under, obstructing the air inlet, and possibly causing enough drag to precipitate a catastrophic collapse.

I wouldn't worry about a handful of B, C, or D lines being broken as long as it passes controllability checks. I would be very concerned about broken A lines. I would be very, very concerned about a broken corner A line due to the possibility of the entire corner folding under.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[mjosparky 4]

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I wouldn't worry about a handful of B, C, or D lines being broken as long as it passes controllability checks.

I would be concerned and wonder how much damage the canopy has that I can't see. I have cutaway with as few a 3 lines, 3 lower, 6 upper, broken. None of which were "A" lines.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[BigSky 2]

I had broken lines this weekend. I had a very very hard opening, and then a lot of line twists. the canopy looked very weird to me when I first looked at it and I almost chopped right then but I decided to get out of the line twists and see what it looked like. It controlled ok with toggles and risers so I landed it. It was one line below the cascade. It was either an A or a B line. It was very exciting to say the lest. This thread helped me out though, and I had just done hanging harness review that morning for my A card. Oh ya, my point was I'm glad I didn't chop becaues it got me to the ground safely without having to use my last chance!

“Sometimes when I reflect back on all the beer I drink I feel ashamed. Then I look into the glass and think about the workers in the brewery and their hopes and dreams. If I didn’t drink this beer, th