Do you pitch in a track?

[FrogNog 1]

I like opening in a track on hop-and-pops. It looks nice on video, and I do it so rarely that I find the change exciting. (To the point of yelling and pumping my fist after inflation. )

But those are not terminal. I have never thrown out in a full track at terminal - I always slow down as much as I can afford.

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[BlueEyedMonster 0]

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Due... your GPS is broken. Even the big wingsuits (S3, PF, etc) are'nt getting into the 100 range

Nope, It's correct... and I still pull in a track... and that's what this thread is about.

[riggerrob 643]

The last time I pitched in a track, I was jumping a Strato-Cloud with a reefing line.
Oh!
I forgot!
That was 23 years ago!
Hee!
Hee!

[livendive 8]

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Due... your GPS is broken. Even the big wingsuits (S3, PF, etc) are'nt getting into the 100 range that often according to some of the most tech savy people in Wingsuiting.

Breaking 100 mph groundspeed is pretty easy to do, even with no suit, given the right weather conditions (smoking uppers).

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[livendive 8]

If your track has a higher vertical speed or a higher overall velocity than your normal belly fallrate, you really need to work on your track. Remember, a^2 + b^2 = c^2.

The only odd thing about dumping out of a half-way decent track is that the opening force is distributed some differently (more on the shoulders to start with rather than evenly across leg straps, chest strap, and shoulders).

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[pilotdave 0]

Ever tried averaging your ground speeds in opposite directions? That'll give you an approximate airspeed. Wind might be significantly different as you get lower, but assuming the wind doesn't shift 180 degrees right where you turn around, it's probably better than just ground speed to get an idea of how fast you're really going.

And how are you measuring fall rate?

My neptune puts my fallrate in the lower 80s just before pull time on most jumps. But I don't buy it. It's inside my helmet and I think something weird happens with the air pressure in my helmet when I track. The paralog graphs somewhat match what I'd expect...fallrate drops during the track... but then does weird things like spike way up just when I pull. I wonder if it is actually the air pressure changing as I'm pulled upright or something. I just can't believe my fallrate increases like 30-40 mph during my waveoff, but who knows. I'll try to post a paralog graph later. Anyone else see the same shape on their graphs?

Dave

[KrisFlyZ 0]

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Breaking 100 mph groundspeed is pretty easy to do, even with no suit, given the right weather conditions (smoking uppers).

Blues,
Dave

He was talking about 180 mph GS and 100 mph airspeed.

Most GPS receivers read with some error. A few feet off on start and end point of a leg can show quite a bit of error. For example 14 feet more per leg will show a speed of almost 10mph more. That is a big error percentage for speeds achieved during tracking.

Kris.

P.S: I used 14 feet as an example because a handheld GPS receiver at rest with good satelite signal shows about 10-20 ft accuracy.

[ManBird 0]

Pitching in a track definitely helps with heading performance and speeds the opening up a bit (definitely reduces altitude loss). While I consistently pitch in a full, hard track (wingsuit or not), I don't recommend it. Your body or canopy can sustain quite a bit of damage from it.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[BlueEyedMonster 0]

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Anyone else see the same shape on their graphs?

I see that too, I have a neptune on my wrist and in my helmet. Both do it. The spike is easy to explain. Watch someone in a wingsuit or tracking pull. As the pilot is pitched and parachute begins to snivel, their forward and directional velocity slow as they transition to a more downward direction. For the first few seconds of this transition, you are actually going down faster than you were with your suit or in a track. Then as your directional velocity continues to decrease, your vertical velocity stops increasing and begins decreasing as your parachute opens, and you have the spike on your graph.

To the rest of you that are doubting my numbers. (And I am so sorry I didn't mean to hijack this thread) I regurlarly track in the mid to low 80's and have reached the 78-79 mark for sustained periods of time on a couple of jumps. This is done completely with lift generated from forward speed. My jump suit is a skin tight ZP RW suit.--no wings, no loose fabric, nothing inflating. The only thing it has is booties and grippers

This lift doesn't happen without a tremendous amount of forward speed. I was weathered out this weekend, but I am going to get a jump GPS logged, neptune logged, and air/ground speed info from the pilot for PhreeZone. If anyone else questions or wants to see. PM me so I can stay out of this thread, I'll get the data to you when the weatherman gets rid of the snow/clouds/wind.

I have attached my very last track jump. Lump at the beginning is turning a wide 90 back to the DZ clear of the Tandem jumpers. Spike at the end is me deploying because I actually bellied out this jump--I wasn't going to pitch my crappiest pack job ever in a track--I only pitch good pack jobs in a track.

[ManBird 0]

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I wasn't going to pitch my crappiest pack job ever in a track--I only pitch good pack jobs in a track.

Pitching in a track helps with heading. The worse the pack job, the harder you you should track when you pitch.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[ChileRelleno 0]

Not if I can avoid it being as it can hurt.

ChileRelleno-Rodriguez Bro#414
Hellfish#511,MuffBro#3532,AnvilBro#9, D24868

[rsein 0]

Pitch while tracking?
Only if I want to see my shoes up close and personal.

HISPA #5

[skydiverkeith 1]

I always pitch in a track to get soft openings. If your max track openings are hard, you still have work to do on your track, because you're probably diving too much.

If you pitch at 120mph in a box man with no forward speed, your air speed at opening would be:

120mph (obviously)

Now, maybe its body type dependent, but my vertical speed during a max track averages around 80mph. Assuming I can accomplish a fast 1:1 glide ratio, my air speed at opening would be:

113mph

Which explains why I get softer openings during a max track or wingsuit flights.

FYI, I'm 5ft 10in and 160 exit weight...

Blue skies,
Keith Medlock

[regulator 0]

2 questions...1.) how much of a difference is it between dumping in a track on a sabre 1 and a sabre2 (I have a sabre 2 190)

2.) Lets say you're in a full track...does coming back to the neutral position to wave off slow you down enough to negate any of the forces you would encounter by dumping with out coming back to neutral?

[champu 1]

Holy blast-from-the-past Batman.

Reading through this thread reminds me of rehmwa's "can 'experience' be bad" thread. Your canopy doesn't care what direction you're going (within reason, if you were somehow traveling up when you deployed it would likely not end well.) It cares about airspeed and body position to the relative wind.

[skydiverkeith 1]

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Holy blast-from-the-past Batman.

Reading through this thread reminds me of rehmwa's "can 'experience' be bad" thread. Your canopy doesn't care what direction you're going (within reason, if you were somehow traveling up when you deployed it would likely not end well.) It cares about airspeed and body position to the relative wind.

?

Did you reply to the correct person?

If so, could you please clarify?

Blue skies,
Keith Medlock

[Remster 30]

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Your canopy doesn't care what direction you're going (within reason, if you were somehow traveling up when you deployed it would likely not end well.)

I don't this this is correct.

Look at the before and after opening states.

With a a normal, non track opening, there is no change in H speed (well, a fairly small one, say 15mph, due to the braked speed of the opened canopy).

In a track opening, the H speed goes form, say, 75mph (ballpark, right?) to 15 mph.

This means that the deceleration is more more dynamic, ie, it's not only a straight up and down deceleration like a non-track opening, but the deceleration vector will change direction through the opening due to the change in H speed.

This does not mean one is better than the other, but they are definitely different.

Remster

[billvon 3,009]

>Your canopy doesn't care what direction you're going (within reason, if
>you were somehow traveling up when you deployed it would likely not end
>well.) It cares about airspeed and body position to the relative wind.

You are literally correct. However, your canopy _does_ care about what your body does as it is transitioning from going forward to going down. During that time, the dynamic behavior of the canopy will not be the same as during a normal opening, since a normal opening does not include that dynamic motion.

[jim_32766 0]

You dug deep for this thread - it was nearly 6 years old until resurrected today.

Even if your air speed were down 7mph, from 120mph to 113mph, think about the difference in your body position. In the track your head will be pointed away from the opening canopy, and your feet toward it. Your body will get rapidly snapped 180 degrees.

When you are in normal boxman position with no horizontal speed, your body will only transition through 90 degrees during deployment. All instructors I've had say to not deploy in a track.

Regarding the horizontal speed component, take a look at the following site to see what is being recorded by GPS. Of course, you could always get the type of GPS used for this and measure your track.

http://www.trackingderby.com/

You notice via the data on that site that people achieve better than 1:1 glide ratio in RW suits. If you are doing this then your 113mph number could be much higher, and even more dangerous.

The meaning of life . . . is to make life have meaning.

[skydiverkeith 1]

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"You dug deep for this thread - it was nearly 6 years old until resurrected today. "

Lol! I didn't even notice. I was searching for something unrelated and it popped up and caught my attention.

"Even if your air speed were down 7mph, from 120mph to 113mph, think about the difference in your body position. In the track your head will be pointed away from the opening canopy, and your feet toward it. Your body will get rapidly snapped 180 degrees.

When you are in normal boxman position with no horizontal speed, your body will only transition through 90 degrees during deployment. All instructors I've had say to not deploy in a track.

Regarding the horizontal speed component, take a look at the following site to see what is being recorded by GPS. Of course, you could always get the type of GPS used for this and measure your track.

http://www.trackingderby.com/

You notice via the data on that site that people achieve better than 1:1 glide ratio in RW suits. If you are doing this then your 113mph number could be much higher, and even more dangerous."

That all makes sense, and I think you're correct. All of the instructors at my home DZ also advise against pitching in a track. However, whether it was wise or not, after so many hard openings, I started to experiment and after having fluffy tracking openings with no back soreness the day after, I would never go back to box man. I understand how its bad in theory, but in practical application, I prefer a tracking deployment.

Blue skies,
Keith Medlock

[champu 1]

The dynamics are not exactly the same, certainly. The ending configuration for the two situations are the same but the starts are different, so the dynamics can't be exactly the same. I'm just saying it doesn't matter.

Returning to neutral before you pitch to get a good opening isn't about "slowing down" or returning to a straight down fall, it's about making sure your hips are into the relative wind. Your airspeed should already be fine.

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Did you reply to the correct person?

If so, could you please clarify?

I'm commenting on the thread in general and replied to you because you had bumped the thread. I'm not disagreeing with what you wrote.

[Halfpastniner 0]

My TI buddy yesterday he is planning on starting to pitch in a track to better prepare himself for precision openings!

BASE 1384

[JohnMitchell 16]

I track like hell, I wave off, I pull and sit up. No problem.
My tracks are pretty fast and pretty much as flat as anyone else's. If your tracks are more of a dive or delta, yeah, your openings are gonna suck.

[RaXz 0]

Last time I tracked pretty fast from a 2-way. I realised in time that I was tracking precisely on jumprun, when that hit me I pitched it fast in full track and I felt something hitting my rightfoot. Maybe I put my right foot somewhat higher when I was stressed to pull fast, even so, it kinda shocked me.

Normally I don't slow my tracks before pitching, maybe somewhat. But from that experience on I will try slow my tracks way more before pitching.