Samurai for a 100 jump person

[skydiverkeith 1]

What does the term "trolling" mean?

Blue skies,
Keith Medlock

[Remster 30]

Quote

Quote

Quote

He told me he wanted the Samuari because he heard he could turn lower due to a quicker plane out.

Holly fuck.

Who told him that? The SAM does not recover quickly from a dive. At all.

It's time like this that I really pray that you are trolling my friend

I should know better than to feed them, shouldn't I...

Remster

[Ron 10]

Quote

I reakon this is crap that a instructor sold a canopy like this to a 100 jump person.

Seen it more than once.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[4chewnate 0]

OK so I did a search on comparing the recovery arc of a Sam vs a Sabre2 but did not have any luck.

Will someone with some true knowledge please tell me how they compare.

PM me if you're afraid of me being a troll.

It seems yelling "troll" is the popular thing to do when someone doesn't have any information to provide.

I'm just trying to learn here folks. And maybe help my freind.

[DSE 5]

Quote

Quote

I reakon this is crap that a instructor sold a canopy like this to a 100 jump person.

Seen it more than once.

Here's an interesting debate;
If a rated instructor sells a canopy that by general concensus is not appropriate for a student and said student harms him/herself under that canopy...Should a 1-6b investigation of the selling instructor take place?

[dragon2 2]

This whole thread is complete nonsense

But here goes.

A Sam is a canopy for a few hundred jumps (our rules say 700!). It has a very long recovery arc, in the ballpark of vengeance and katana, ie, the last step before a crossbraced canopy.
A sabre 2 has a decent recovery arc, which makes it a very good canopy to learn to swoop on. If you want a SHORT recovery arc, look for a sabre 1, pilot, pulse, spectre, triathlon, or other beginner/intermediate type canopies, or some of the older HP canopies like the stiletto or springo. All of these are BAD/UNSAFE to learn to swoop on (at least more than double fronts or maybe a 90) BECAUSE of their short recovery arcs. If you have to turn low to come out of a turn at the right altitude you leave yourself maybe a foot of error margin, which is likely to get you hurt or even killed. If you have to turn higher to come out right, like with a sabre 2, this leaves you more room for error and is thus safer, provided you do not turn TOO low as this will hurt you real bad of course.

So, recap: if your guy wants to learn how to swoop he already has the best canopy he can buy for that. Up to 500-700 jumps he should stick with various sizes of sabre 2 before moving onto a katana or a sam.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[dragon2 2]

I have no idea what a 1-6b investigation is, but the whole "instructor sells wrong canopy (or wingsuit...) to beginner jumper" sits very very wrong with me, as these are the very people who's advice you should be able to trust

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[NWFlyer 2]

Quote

Quote

Quote

I reakon this is crap that a instructor sold a canopy like this to a 100 jump person.

Seen it more than once.

Here's an interesting debate;
If a rated instructor sells a canopy that by general concensus is not appropriate for a student and said student harms him/herself under that canopy...Should a 1-6b investigation of the selling instructor take place?

1-6b quoted below for those who don't have the entire governance manual memorized like Spot

So under which sub-part would you propose said instructor be investigated? Are we changing the situation from selling to a 100-jump (presumably licensed) individual to selling to a non-licensed student?

Quote

B. Any USPA member shall be guilty of an offense
justifying the imposition of the penalties set forth
in USPA Governance Manual Section 1-6.4.C
(below) who—
1. Willfully, flagrantly, or continuously violates the
USPA Basic Safety Requirements
2. Aids and abets a willful violation of the USPA
Basic Safety Requirements
3. Is so grossly negligent in his conduct or acts as
to imminently imperil his fellow skydivers or
aircraft or persons or property on the ground,
or wantonly disregards the safety of himself or
other persons
4. Engages in any conduct as a skydiver which a
person of reasonable prudence would anticipate
as being likely to bring public contempt
upon himself or herself, or upon skydivers,
or upon USPA
5. Engages in any conduct which reasonably
jeopardizes the well-being of USPA
6. Willfully falsifies any document, certificate, or
record connected with or relating to skydiving
7. Willfully and knowingly misrepresents any
material fact in connection with any application
filed with USPA

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[wmw999 2,452]

Quote

I'm just trying to learn here folks. And maybe help my freind

Troll or not, there's nothing wrong with answering the question.

I don't know about those two in particular. However, I believe I've read that learning to swoop on a canopy with a shorter recovery arc is a bad idea. The longer recover arc apparently gives you more time to decide to end the swoop (because you have to start higher because of the recovery arc), which means that you have the leeway to make a mistake and bail.

Buying a canopy which gives you fewer opportunities to recover from a mistake is a really, really bad idea when you're new at something. It's what you do AFTER you've made all the major mistakes, or learned from others' having made them, and made some of your own.

Really. NO ONE EVER LEARNS EVERYTHING FROM OTHERS' MISTAKES. We all make our own mistakes.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[DSE 5]

3. Is so grossly negligent in his conduct or acts as
to imminently imperil his fellow skydivers or
aircraft or persons or property on the ground,
or wantonly disregards the safety of himself or
other persons


I would submit that an instructor could be guilty of wantonly disregarding the safety of a student or newer skydiver by selling them a highly loaded elliptical. Potentially difficult to demonstrate, which is why I placed the caveat of the student being harmed. "Student" could/should probably be replaced with "low-experience" skydiver.

[Ron 10]

Quote

Here's an interesting debate;
If a rated instructor sells a canopy that by general concensus is not appropriate for a student and said student harms him/herself under that canopy...Should a 1-6b investigation of the selling instructor take place?

Not unless you can show how the Instructor violated some BSR. "general consensus" is not really a good indicator.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[skydiverkeith 1]

I'm still wondering what a "Troll" is. I can't quite make it out from the context...

Blue skies,
Keith Medlock

[Rover 11]

Troll = shit stirrer

2 wrongs don't make a right - but 3 lefts do.

[Sangi 0]

http://www.the-turds.co.uk/turds/Shit-Stirrer.aspx

"Dream as you'll live forever, live as you'll die today." James Dean

[Skydivesg 7]

That's not what I thought a troll was.

I think a troll is someone who hides under cover, such as the troll under the bridge. You know short with long stringy straggly hair. I had one as a kid.

I had someone else tell me he thought a troll is someone who slowly lures bait in front of someone hoping they will bite. Like fishing. That's why they came up with troll motors for fishing boats.

So I guess a troll is anything you want it to be.

Either way it dosn't seem like this guy is a troll.

Besides read any of these threads and we all seem to be stirring some shit at some point or another.

So I guess were all trolls, especially the people who cry "TROLL!!!!"

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

[headoverheels 333]

In this context, it is the fishing thing. You throw something out there, and see whether anyone takes the bait.

[Skydivesg 7]

Are you going to debate Rover because he thinks it's the shit stirring thing.

Oh wait, this post makes me the shit stirrer........

TROLL!!!!!!!!!!

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

[craigbey 0]

Sandy, I thought THIS post made you a shit stirrer?
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3885853#3885853
Oh, wait ... that's about a different kind of shit.


And to the 'friend' of the OP... a Sam is not appropriate for someone with 100 jumps. Learn to fly the piss out of what you have and have fun doing it.

[Skydivesg 7]

Craig, correct me if I'm wrong but actually that post makes me a purveyor of truth.

And I did see the dog piss in the class room just before I left the DZ.

What do you think of our dog invasion? email me.

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

Quote

He's just your average guy out of college. Didn't play sports other than when he was young.

He's in OK shape, nothing special. He's not over weight.

He had never been in an airplane until his first jump.

He made about 50 jumps and then took six months off to finish college. Started back up the first of the year. He makes about 4-5 jumps per weekend. He's been doing front riser approaches and lately some 90s to final. He seems to be turning too high for a swoop.

He jumps a Sabre 2 170. His landings are OK but nothing any better than others with his numbers.

He told me he wanted the Samuari because he heard he could turn lower due to a quicker plane out. I told him that's a bad idea.

I don't know anything about the Samurai because no one jumps one around here. The intructor did not own or jump the canopy.

I was asking because I want to know more about the canopy and maybe give this info to my freind.

If he is turning a bit high on the 170 the 150 should put him right where he wants to be. Be sure to get video. You might be able to sell it to one of those reality TV shows.

[Scootersv 0]

Here are my 2 cents.

I personally aware of the successful handling of Samo 170 by the jumper with under 100 jumps loading it 1.0. The same person had an average canopy piloting skills at the time. At 280 jumps in his skydiving career he moved to Samo 150 without a single chop or accidents under his 170. He has got now just under 500 jumps all up and is planning to move down to 136.

At the same time I'm aware of the jumper who used to jump 120 sq.ft Sabre 2 loading it nearly 2.0. You would never believe the guy was jumping a Sabre looking at his landing. Does it make Sabre (widely accepted a good post student canopy) less aggressive canopy? Hell no - it's a f....ing hungry dog. I actually prefer to be under Samo than Sabre 2 with the same wingloading no both.
And i had a chance to compare Samo 136, Mamba 132 and Katana 135 and Samo does not come even close to the last two. And Under Samo 136 it felt like i was flying 150 sq.ft main, not 136.
I'm not trying to say that Samo is an excellent choice for a beginner, but it can be flown conservatively, and it's a rock solid in turbulence - very stable and reliable.
It's largely depends on the wing loading and awareness/knowledge of the type of canopy you fly.

[Skydivesg 7]

Does anyone know what Brian Germain recommends for experience for this canopy?

I asked him on his web page but no response.

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

[kj126 0]

Quote

Does anyone know what Brian Germain recommends for experience for this canopy?

I asked him on his web page but no response.

http://www.bigairsportz.com/pdf/bas-sizingchart.pdf

I Am Sofa King We Todd Did!!

[Sangi 0]

Quote

Here are my 2 cents.

I personally aware of the successful handling of Samo 170 by the jumper with under 100 jumps loading it 1.0. The same person had an average canopy piloting skills at the time. At 280 jumps in his skydiving career he moved to Samo 150 without a single chop or accidents under his 170. He has got now just under 500 jumps all up and is planning to move down to 136.

At the same time I'm aware of the jumper who used to jump 120 sq.ft Sabre 2 loading it nearly 2.0. You would never believe the guy was jumping a Sabre looking at his landing. Does it make Sabre (widely accepted a good post student canopy) less aggressive canopy? Hell no - it's a f....ing hungry dog. I actually prefer to be under Samo than Sabre 2 with the same wingloading no both.
And i had a chance to compare Samo 136, Mamba 132 and Katana 135 and Samo does not come even close to the last two. And Under Samo 136 it felt like i was flying 150 sq.ft main, not 136.
I'm not trying to say that Samo is an excellent choice for a beginner, but it can be flown conservatively, and it's a rock solid in turbulence - very stable and reliable.
It's largely depends on the wing loading and awareness/knowledge of the type of canopy you fly.

Ha, in your face you all conservative fossils from the 70's!

"Dream as you'll live forever, live as you'll die today." James Dean

[nigel99 489]

Quote

Ha, in your face you all conservative fossils from the 70's!

1) The are old skydivers and there are bold skydivers but there are no old bold skydivers

2) Young, dumb and full of cum

3) Troll?

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.