More old gear bigotry

[Airman1270 0]

Last week I took my Wonderhog/'Cloud up for some action & overheard one guy express concern that I posed a threat to his safety.

Don't know whether he knew I was doing a solo, but he HAD to know that I wasn't part of his group. So what was the problem? What can possibly happen that might interfere with anyone else (that couldn't happen with any other rig?) Even if we WERE on the same dive, how can this rig possibly cause harm to anyone else who happened to be nearby?

The comments from younger jumpers are amusing and go with the territory, but I wonder: If a pilot showed up in a P-51, would the other pilots snicker and question why he continues to fly that old piece of shit? After all, it IS 70-odd years old and has long since been outclassed in every possible way. Would they tell him to get with the program & buy something a little more up-to-date?

May I remind people that the incident reports frequently involve people who are current and jump some of the best gear available?

Cheers,
Jon S.

[buff 0]

Last year a couple of our "old guys" jumped a rig with a ParaCommander last jumped like in 85 or so. I think the rig had blast handles. Pretty cool.

Another jumper we have jumps with a Racer that I swear was the rig Jesus used in his FJC before he sold it to D-1 Lew. I do belly with him weekly. I have an old Talon and a V3. I don't FF with the Talon but then again it was not designed for that use.

If the container is maintained, what could be the risk. It has 3 handles, 3-rings, holds 2 canopies and is made to open. The rest is bling and speciality shit right?

I find old gear pretty cool and I remember the first time I tried to figure out a bungee PC. I don't want one but it functioned as designed.

Tell the haters to go talk the (old crusty) ST&A if they have a problem b/c you are busy making loads and don't have time to give them a course in rigging.

**Disclaimer - The opinion expressed above is just that, an opinion of a don't know shit DZ bum. I'm not an instructor nor a certificated rigger but can change my mains using slinks, make closing loops, floating loops, change p/c's and sew jump suits. And I do watch the Holiday Inn Express commercials nighty.

It's called the Hillbilly Hop N Pop dude.
If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough.
That's fucked up. Watermelons do not grow on trees! ~Skymama

[stratostar 5]

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a P-51,IS 70-odd years old and has long since been outclassed in every possible way.

Not even! You can't beat the sound of one of those babys screaming past you.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[JohnMitchell 16]

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[
Not even! You can't beat the sound of one of those babys screaming past you.

Sure you can. It's beaten by the sound of that Merlin screamin' with you sittin' 10 feet behind it.

[Boris73 0]

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a P-51,IS 70-odd years old and has long since been outclassed in every possible way.

Not even! You can't beat the sound of one of those babys screaming past you.

Definately can, a spitfire... unless you are talking about the P-51D. In which case, you are welcome, as if it wasn't forus Brits the P-51 would be no where near as good

[kallend 2,026]

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a P-51,IS 70-odd years old and has long since been outclassed in every possible way.

Not even! You can't beat the sound of one of those babys screaming past you.

Definately can, a spitfire... unless you are talking about the P-51D. In which case, you are welcome, as if it wasn't forus Brits the P-51 would be no where near as good

If it weren't for Brits the P51 wouldn't exist at all. It was built to a British Air Ministry specification.

And of course, a Mossie has 2 Merlins and a Lanc has 4.

Comparing a Wonderhog to a P51 is silly, of course. A Wonderhog is more like a Brewster Buffalo.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[jakee 1,489]

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a P-51,IS 70-odd years old and has long since been outclassed in every possible way.

Not even! You can't beat the sound of one of those babys screaming past you.

I was once lucky enough to see some of the first post-restoration flights of a Mk19 Spitfire, Griffon powered with contra-rotating props. Now that was a sweet sounding aeroplane!

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[skybill 22]

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Last week I took my Wonderhog/'Cloud up for some action & overheard one guy express concern that I posed a threat to his safety.

Don't know whether he knew I was doing a solo, but he HAD to know that I wasn't part of his group. So what was the problem? What can possibly happen that might interfere with anyone else (that couldn't happen with any other rig?) Even if we WERE on the same dive, how can this rig possibly cause harm to anyone else who happened to be nearby?

The comments from younger jumpers are amusing and go with the territory, but I wonder: If a pilot showed up in a P-51, would the other pilots snicker and question why he continues to fly that old piece of shit? After all, it IS 70-odd years old and has long since been outclassed in every possible way. Would they tell him to get with the program & buy something a little more up-to-date?

May I remind people that the incident reports frequently involve people who are current and jump some of the best gear available?

Cheers,
Jon S.

Hi 1270,
'Gotta old '76 model Stratostar in a Wonderhog!! Only need to get a 26' NAVCON, got the Waters 4-line release, and reline the Strat If I get it together, we can "show up" on a load and maybe that dude will blow chunks or sumptin', I havn't had a good laugh in a long time!! That dude needs a good laughing at!! And, to salt the dude some more, I'll have on my old (It's still race ready) 2-piece Silly suit!!

With rig over the shoulder walkin' to the plane, what would Wm. Fawcett or Slim Pickins say????

SCR-2034, SCS-680

III%,
Deli-out

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

The only risk that I can think of is related to premature container opening. The design of some older rigs is more vulnerable to premature activation. If that were to occur in the plane, everyone aboard the plane is at risk. If it happens in freefall, those in your group are at risk.

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[Airman1270 0]

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The only risk that I can think of is related to premature container opening. The design of some older rigs is more vulnerable to premature activation. If that were to occur in the plane, everyone aboard the plane is at risk. If it happens in freefall, those in your group are at risk.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

I'll accept this as an opportunity to learn more, but for now I don't see how the 'Hog poses any more risk than any other rig. Especially when I've been jumping it for 20+ years without incident. Guarding handles near the door seems to work regardless of the rig in question.

I do take an interest in this, because I frequently do hop & pops (especially when using this gear) and spend an inordinate amount of airplane time sitting near the door.

As far as freefall is concerned, a premature opening only poses a hazard to people directly above (no matter what rig I'm using.) Since Basic Freefall Survival Rule #1 is to avoid being directly above anyone else, I'm still not seeing why this rig would require more caution than would otherwise be considered prudent.

Cheers,
Jon

[stratostar 5]

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The design of some older rigs is more vulnerable to premature activation.

Sorry but I got play the "your full of shit card" here.

1. 1977 wonderhog SN#944 outside of exposed risers, not much different then todays vector 2's in regards to being closed and jump able.

2. Close up of BOC and bridal on 77 HOG, look much different to you how?

3. Close up of pin.

4. 1974 SST (there is a reason they were called Struggle struggle thump)

5.Close up of SST pin

6. Sport Pro with pins & cones, that SOB is not coming open till you open it!

7. Close up of pins & cones

None of those rigs are coming open premature any more then any of todays rigs, all the same rules of yesterday still apply today,

1. watch your handles! (getting in AC, moving in AC, getting out of AC)

2. Gear check your shit! (make sure pins are seated, closing loops are not too long etc.)

Most people who make those wild ass claims in todays sport have never jumped this stuff and are only repeating shit they hear or read on the net.

Are there better designs in the market place today? SURE there are, however that don't mean an older rig from the 60's or 70's is an automatic death rig and unsafe to jump solo or as a group, they are not anymore endangering to others then any other rig in the air as along as you play by the rules stated above.

Yea I know there will a number of people chime in now to say I'm wrong and all that shit, it's all good, don't you worry about it unless it's on YOUR back!

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[jonstark 8]

Your "old" Hog has been modified.

The WonderHog had a bite of bridle thru an elastic closing loop originally.
A belly band was original equipment on that rig too not a BOC.
SST puds got knocked off so there have been many iterations. A floating pud was more likely to be treated as a total then to cause an unplanned full deployment.

None of the rigs you show in your pix are apt to open prematurely. -but- There were reasons for modifying them from their original state because... "The design of some older rigs is more vulnerable to premature deployment."

We and the manufacturers had a lot to learn. Thankfully we are the beneficiaries of some horrific tales and the rigging efforts to prevent their reocurrence.

[stratostar 5]

1. yep I took off the bite of bridal set up and had the belly band removed and installed the BOC, that was done more for noobies to jump it, then for myself, however I do like it better this way for a number of reason. It also has one of those round things with a lot of holes inside it.

2, The SST is pre pud and orginal as far as I know, rig belonged William Weber, Billy's dad, and is the way I got it.

3. That sport pro is original 100%, got a few more I can pull out and photo if ya like.... All factory spec.

We want to have fun and be safe, not stupid.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

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Since Basic Freefall Survival Rule #1 is to avoid being directly above anyone else

In a perfect world that might work... But exits funnel and folks get low and slide under formations. Additionally, modern 4 way FS often entails "over - under" block moves.

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[kallend 2,026]

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Since Basic Freefall Survival Rule #1 is to avoid being directly above anyone else, I'm still not seeing why this rig would require more caution than would otherwise be considered prudent.

Cheers,
Jon

I suppose it's debatable whether flying a wingsuit is freefall (although we log freefall time). However, flying in a vertical stack is not considered unusual in wingsuits.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[sundevil777 102]

It would be fun if your rig had the old paraphernalia paddle flap release system (I forgot the term used to describe it). Not many have seen those things.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[JohnMitchell 16]

Thanks for putting up the pics.
Ripcords are dandy ways to close, then later open, parachute containers. The Racer has the most well protected reserve pins on the planet. I'd jump that rig anytime.

The old Hawg? I used to have one, blast handle, belly band, and tape wells. Sure, safe enough, but remember how all those bridle protection flaps would flap open and shut through out the whole skydive,? I never thought that was a very good design. Not sport death, but watch where you lean in the plane.

Lack of riser covers makes these rigs unsuitable for freeflying and speed skydiving. An old roomate found lots of lines and risers out and tangling at the end of a speed skydive (back before we knew what to call it) when it came time to pull.

Those are my opinions, and I'm blindly sticking to them.

[ufk22 33]

This reminds me of a load I was on the last year the convention was in Quincy. i was jumping a V-2 with a leg pouch. A very young guy sat next to me on the plane and commented on my leg-pouch throw-out "man, don't you know that's dangerous, it could kill you"
I told him i wasn't doing anything but belly-flying and, having dealt with an ugly horseshoe a couple of years before, wasn't in a hurry to switch to BOC.
He asked what a horseshoe was!!!!

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[skybill 22]

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The design of some older rigs is more vulnerable to premature activation.

Sorry but I got play the "your full of shit card" here.

1. 1977 wonderhog SN#944 outside of exposed risers, not much different then todays vector 2's in regards to being closed and jump able.

2. Close up of BOC and bridal on 77 HOG, look much different to you how?

3. Close up of pin.

4. 1974 SST (there is a reason they were called Struggle struggle thump)

5.Close up of SST pin

6. Sport Pro with pins & cones, that SOB is not coming open till you open it!

7. Close up of pins & cones

None of those rigs are coming open premature any more then any of todays rigs, all the same rules of yesterday still apply today,

1. watch your handles! (getting in AC, moving in AC, getting out of AC)

2. Gear check your shit! (make sure pins are seated, closing loops are not too long etc.)

Most people who make those wild ass claims in todays sport have never jumped this stuff and are only repeating shit they hear or read on the net.

Are there better designs in the market place today? SURE there are, however that don't mean an older rig from the 60's or 70's is an automatic death rig and unsafe to jump solo or as a group, they are not anymore endangering to others then any other rig in the air as along as you play by the rules stated above.

Yea I know there will a number of people chime in now to say I'm wrong and all that shit, it's all good, don't you worry about it unless it's on YOUR back!

Thx Strat!!
Got an old WH myself, '76 model. All todays rigs still have 4 flaps a loop and a pin!! So, what's new?? Only thing really diferent is the pin flap improvements other than that it's the same old rig!!! These newbies see old stuff and crap their pants!! They shoulda' been there when we were "developing' new gear!! They forget that the gear that we have today is the product of step-by step development by "US!!!!" Skydivers invented Skydiving Gear for Skydivers!!! Tiddleywinks players sure as hell didn't!!

SCR-2034, SCS-680

III%,
Deli-out

[skybill 22]

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Your "old" Hog has been modified.

The WonderHog had a bite of bridle thru an elastic closing loop originally.
A belly band was original equipment on that rig too not a BOC.
SST puds got knocked off so there have been many iterations. A floating pud was more likely to be treated as a total then to cause an unplanned full deployment.

None of the rigs you show in your pix are apt to open prematurely. -but- There were reasons for modifying them from their original state because... "The design of some older rigs is more vulnerable to premature deployment."

We and the manufacturers had a lot to learn. Thankfully we are the beneficiaries of some horrific tales and the rigging efforts to prevent their reocurrence.

Hi Jon,
Yup, the old bite-of-bridle!! Worked fine as long as you didn't try to over stuff the container!!! 'Remember some dude named "birddawg" of soumptin funky like that that went in at Old Elsinore compliments of a "tight loop!!" Had the PC in tow and tried to do a reach-around and dis lodge it and wound himself up in the canopy like a cocoon!! "BSBD!!!!" Inbetween the "Bight-of-bridle" and Hanks' "Curved Pin" was Leo Orlowski's "Polish Pin" a doubled over piece of cutaway cable with a swage to form a loop!! They worked fine "With Elastic loops ONLY!!!" Some dumbshits used them on tight packs with gutted 550 closing loops and I remember "Grubb" had one and stripped off the plastic coating and had a total/PC n toe!!! lucky he didn't get his reserve tangled!! All this happened before the dude that badmouthed this gear in the beginning of this thread was even a tinkle in his daddys' pants!!

SCR-2034, SCS-680

III%,
Deli-out

[skyjumpenfool 2]

It's always interesting when I get in the plane with my old CRW rig on.... shit hanging out all over the place, newbs shaking their heads in wonder. The biggest problem is my rigger won't pack anything that is old enough to drink???

Nothing wrong with old gear. But I sure like my newer stuff??

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[JohnMitchell 16]

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It would be fun if your rig had the old paraphernalia paddle flap release system (I forgot the term used to describe it). Not many have seen those things.

It was called the Chrysilas. It was actually a pretty good system, but it never got real popular. Here's Vskydiver with her Northern Lite rig with the Chrysilas system. This was after a demo into a school somewhere. I think this was when she was 12 or 13.

[JohnMitchell 16]

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Yup, the old bite-of-bridle!! Worked fine as long as you didn't try to over stuff the container!!!

I towed a pilot chute big time on mine back in Ogden, UT. I didn't like that one bit.

Ordered a Racer with a pull out the next week. Now I have about 4000 pull out jumps.

[NovaTTT 2]

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It was called the Chrysilas. It was actually a pretty good system, but it never got real popular. Here's Vskydiver with her Northern Lite rig with the Chrysilas system. This was after a demo into a school somewhere. I think this was when she was 12 or 13.

Nice 'system' in the photo.

But where's the Chrysalis?

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

[JerryBaumchen 1,354]

Hi John,

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It was actually a pretty good system,

Only in concept. It was a bear to build & hold the necessary tolerances. Then the webbing would elongate and the device(s) would be out of tolerance.

I seem to remember it being a Bill Jesswine design.

JerryBaumchen