billvon 3,009 #1 June 3, 2010 In the past few weeks we've had four Vigils firing due to doors opening just under 1000 feet. In both cases it looks like they were accidental openings - but many skydivers open the door of the aircraft at 1000 feet as a matter of course. It might be wise to start thinking about keeping the door closed on aircraft to a higher altitude when there are Vigils on the load, at least until the problem is better understood. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #2 June 3, 2010 And if you have a Vigil on your rig, don't sit near the door. It's only a matter of time until someone is sucked out the door by their loose pilot chute, with disastrous consequences. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Psychonaut 0 #3 June 3, 2010 I haven't read too much into detail, are you using 'Vigil' literal as in the first, or are you implying Vigil II as well?Stay high pull low Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jsreznor 0 #4 June 3, 2010 QuoteIn the past few weeks we've had four Vigils firing due to doors opening just under 1000 feet. In both cases it looks like they were accidental openings - but many skydivers open the door of the aircraft at 1000 feet as a matter of course. It might be wise to start thinking about keeping the door closed on aircraft to a higher altitude when there are Vigils on the load, at least until the problem is better understood. On all aircraft? On all Vigil modes? Isn't there some rule about seatbelts and 1000 feet? Wouldn't the door have to open AFTER everyone gets their seatbelts off? So like, 1000 feet, then seatbelts, then doors? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 8 #5 June 3, 2010 QuoteQuoteIn the past few weeks we've had four Vigils firing due to doors opening just under 1000 feet. In both cases it looks like they were accidental openings - but many skydivers open the door of the aircraft at 1000 feet as a matter of course. It might be wise to start thinking about keeping the door closed on aircraft to a higher altitude when there are Vigils on the load, at least until the problem is better understood. On all aircraft? On all Vigil modes? Isn't there some rule about seatbelts and 1000 feet? Wouldn't the door have to open AFTER everyone gets their seatbelts off? So like, 1000 feet, then seatbelts, then doors? The door doesnt usually fully open till 1000-1500 feet, but someone generally sticks their foot under the door to let a little air in until then."I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Psychonaut 0 #6 June 3, 2010 Quote Wouldn't the door have to open AFTER everyone gets their seatbelts off? So like, 1000 feet, then seatbelts, then doors? It was stated assuming we all know that.. Do you want to tell your significant other to make you a peanut butter sandwich, or do you want to tell her to open the cupboard door, grab a knife, twist the lid off, etc.. Stay high pull low Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #7 June 3, 2010 QuoteIn the past few weeks we've had four Vigils firing due to doors opening just under 1000 feet. In both cases it looks like they were accidental openings - but many skydivers open the door of the aircraft at 1000 feet as a matter of course. It might be wise to start thinking about keeping the door closed on aircraft to a higher altitude when there are Vigils on the load, at least until the problem is better understood. In the absence on any relevant feedback from the manufacturer, except the classic "the units worked as designed", what altitude would be safe to open the door? What kind of altitude change can be seen by the units with a door opening on a 182? A Twin Otter? A Skyvan? Moving the door opening altitude higher will only help if the worst case scenario of pressure increase on opening keeps the perceived altitude above any danger zone....Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dqpacker 7 #8 June 3, 2010 QuoteIn the past few weeks we've had four Vigils firing due to doors opening just under 1000 feet. In both cases it looks like they were accidental openings - but many skydivers open the door of the aircraft at 1000 feet as a matter of course. It might be wise to start thinking about keeping the door closed on aircraft to a higher altitude when there are Vigils on the load, at least until the problem is better understood. Where both cases Cessna's or Otters or Other. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lippy 918 #9 June 3, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteIn the past few weeks we've had four Vigils firing due to doors opening just under 1000 feet. In both cases it looks like they were accidental openings - but many skydivers open the door of the aircraft at 1000 feet as a matter of course. It might be wise to start thinking about keeping the door closed on aircraft to a higher altitude when there are Vigils on the load, at least until the problem is better understood. On all aircraft? On all Vigil modes? Isn't there some rule about seatbelts and 1000 feet? Wouldn't the door have to open AFTER everyone gets their seatbelts off? So like, 1000 feet, then seatbelts, then doors? The door doesnt usually fully open till 1000-1500 feet, but someone generally sticks their foot under the door to let a little air in until then. Different DZ's have different rules. I know a few Otter DZ's where it's not allowed for somebody to 'prop' the door open with their foot before everybody removes seatbelts and it's completely opened. As of this season, Skydive Dallas requires seatbelts on and helmets worn/secured until 1500'. As far as I know this rule has nothing to do with recent Vigil fires and more to do with the practicality of getting out of the plane if the shit hits the fan at 1100 ft, but that's another story altogether. Might be something worth considering at other DZ's, for either of the two reasons mentioned above.I got nuthin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerpaul 1 #10 June 3, 2010 Quote As of this season, Skydive Dallas requires seatbelts on and helmets worn/secured until 1500'. As far as I know this rule has nothing to do with recent Vigil fires and more to do with the practicality of getting out of the plane if the shit hits the fan at 1100 ft, but that's another story altogether. Might be something worth considering at other DZ's, for either of the two reasons mentioned above. It is all well and good to say that we won't open the door until we are well above the critical firing altitude. But, in fact, the recent case in the USA involved a door on a C206 opening by accident. Nobody intended that door to open when it did. So I sort of must support JohnRich's statement that we should prefer that Vigils are not so near the door. At least that way we have a chance to trap the pilot chutes before they go out the door. What about Tandem mode AADs, where the critical firing altitude is substantially higher? The recent beautiful graphic with all the AAD numbers on it says the Tandem AADs activate at 1900, 2040, and 2200 feet. Shall we keep the door closed to 3000' when there are tandems on board? How Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NovaTTT 2 #11 June 3, 2010 Quote Moving the door opening altitude higher will only help if the worst case scenario of pressure increase on opening keeps the perceived altitude above any danger zone.... Moving the door opening altitude higher will take the AAD out of its firing range. "Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #12 June 4, 2010 QuoteAs of this season, Skydive Dallas requires seatbelts on and helmets worn/secured until 1500'. As far as I know this rule has nothing to do with recent Vigil fires and more to do with the practicality of getting out of the plane if the shit hits the fan at 1100 ft, but that's another story altogether. That's part of it. Another part is that it keeps loose pilot chutes from being sucked out the door at low altitude, when there's no time for anyone to save themselves. And a third part is that keeping the door closed smooths the airflow, so that if you lose an engine on a twin-engine aircraft, and the plane yaws, you don't get a big dump of air against the back wall, causing even further loss of airspeed, and then an aerodynamic stall, which could cause the plane to crash. It's already happened before... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,009 #13 June 4, 2010 Johnrich - good point on the "don't sit near the door" as an alternative solution. Harder to enforce though since in the summer everyone wants to sit near the door, and the temptation to say "don't worry, I'll be fine" is high. Psycho - as far as I know, there has been at least one Vigil 1 firing and one Vigil 2 firing. Remi - altitude question is a good one. We can assume based on the data from both firings (and the statement that it "worked as designed") that it is more likely to happen near the 'real' firing altitude, but tandem and student Vigils fire at higher altitudes. (And since you can set the Vigil to any of the modes, there's no one Vigil that is guaranteed to be set to a certain altitude.) That would suggest that the minimum door-open altitude should be above 2000 feet if there are Vigils on board, In general, Otters might be a bit safer in this regard because most people sit in a position where a RPC launch is less likely to escape out the door - and the door requires more effort to open. On Otters, a "no one on the floor until 3000 feet" rule might suffice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gary73 10 #14 June 4, 2010 Seems to me that the only safe place for a Vigil-equipped jumper to sit is ON THE DAMN GROUND! Seriously, folks, an accidental reserve fire can kill an entire plane-load of people, not just the guy who decided to save a few bucks on his AAD. We need to stop making excuses for Vigils and ground them all before there's a fatality. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdfreefly 1 #15 June 4, 2010 Bill, What type of plane and what type of door did the plane have in these cases? I'm curious if the seal of the door or the seal on the airplane itself may be playing a part in these events. Methane Freefly - got stink? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kkeenan 14 #16 June 4, 2010 The best place for questionable skydiving equipment is on the ground until the anomalies are understood and fixed. I sure don't want to be riding a tailless aircraft into the ground because someone thought they had figured out how to work around a known defect. Get real, people. This is not skateboarding. Ground all Vigils until the manufacturer provides a proper explanation. Kevin Keenan_____________________________________ Dude, you are so awesome... Can I be on your ash jump ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stayhigh 2 #17 June 4, 2010 How about grounding the thing??? Tandems are gonna hell of a time hooking each other up at 1000 ft.Bernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #18 June 4, 2010 Quote Quote Moving the door opening altitude higher will only help if the worst case scenario of pressure increase on opening keeps the perceived altitude above any danger zone.... Moving the door opening altitude higher will take the AAD out of its firing range. Sigh... My point was : how high do you need to set the safe opening altitude. Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
burtonjm 0 #19 June 4, 2010 Quote Quote Quote Moving the door opening altitude higher will only help if the worst case scenario of pressure increase on opening keeps the perceived altitude above any danger zone.... Moving the door opening altitude higher will take the AAD out of its firing range. Sigh... My point was : how high do you need to set the safe opening altitude. That depends. Theoretically the pressure fluctuation could cause it to fire at higher altitudes. I agree the only safe thing to do is ground the damn things until AAD fixes the designThis shit, right here, is OK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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