noobie advice regarding accuracy

[lisamariewillbe 1]

There is not a forum for accuracy and although I am new I am methodical with everything I do, I know through conversations with coaches and instructors prior to jumping where I exit, where I will most likely be when I pull and the general area I am to land in. What I want to know is how do I look at the area I want to land and actually land there? I know about the "once on final look where the earth stops moving" but how do I pick a spot and make that where the earth stops moving? Sorry if Im asking to much right now, I am just preparing for this weekend and of course I will talk with a instructor at the DZ I jump at prior to taking any advice or suggestion. Just want some general information regarding others experience, thank you for your time

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[skybytch 273]

Quote

What I want to know is how do I look at the area I want to land and actually land there? I know about the "once on final look where the earth stops moving" but how do I pick a spot and make that where the earth stops moving?

Before you can use the "accuracy trick" you have to first see it work a few times. On your next few jumps, while you're up high playing in your holding area set yourself up into the wind. Look ahead and see what ground areas seems to be "rising" and what seems to be "sinking" - in between those areas will be an area that doesn't seem to be moving. That's where you'd land if you continued to fly in that direction without going into brakes or turning (this is a handy way to figure out if you'll make it back from a long spot too).

Once you've seen it up high, do the same thing on final - don't worry about picking the spot beforehand just yet. Once you've seen it a couple times you can start working on adjusting your pattern to make the spot you want to land on the spot that isn't moving.

[lisamariewillbe 1]

That makes sense, Under canopy so far while avoce my decsion point I tend to fixate on finding outs and pretending the wind changed and set up different landing patterns, I have yet to try the spot that doesnt move while above 3000, it was only the last few jumps I realized that I can adjust the pattern depending on winds ie hold heading longer and such, I will try that and see how it feels Thank you for the advice.

edit to add btw Hack this post is all your fault, you got me thinking about it last night and left me confused lol

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[plowdirt 0]

o.k. #1 Ask your coachs first.

It took me a bit too, but get there.. where ever you are at 1000 ft thats pretty much where your gonna land, depending on your pattern. I'm a low # jmpr but I get within 10 yards of my target. (The neighbors yard the guy next door to him and the guy down the street)


stick to the basics, pull flare lft,rt S-turns, later comes frnt riser rear risers. watch your approaches it will come to you.

Keep your head on a swivel, and relax. Your starting to freak me out now

[lisamariewillbe 1]

Quote

1000 ft thats pretty much where your gonna land

So if while in my holding area when I start my landing pattern at a grand over where I want to land then I will be close? Does this follow the tradition 1000 600 300 landing pattern?

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[plowdirt 0]

pretty much works for me, I mean where ever I'm at at 1000 ft I can look any direction (right /left) and it's in that vicinity. The trick is getting there, somtimes i play around to much with my canopy. flying around in brakes and trying new things, I can't get into with you now, but sometimes if you don't pay attention, you just won't land there.

[bmcd308 0]

No.

You don't want to be over the target at 1,000 feet. You want to be beside it and upwind of it. By how much? That is where experience and trial and error come into play.

The key to a reasonably accurate landing for a relatively new jumper is to accurately predict, on the ground before you go up, where you want to be at 300 feet. Then pick a pattern that gets you there. How do you get to the spot where you want to be at 300 feet? Well, naturally, by picking a spot where you want to be at 600 feet that will allow you to fly crosswind to that 300 foot spot. And how do you get to that 600 foot spot? By picking a spot at 1000 feet that allows you to fly downwind to get there.

By starting your planning high, you can make corrections all the way down.

Choose a landing spot that allows lots of leeway for a safe landing on either end on final. That is, one where if you are way short or way long you will be OK. Now pick a spot over the ground where you want to be at 300 feet. On a no wind day, this will be about 750-900 feet away from the spot where you want to land. On a windy day, this will be shorter, as your approach angle over the ground will be steeper. Fly to that spot and face into the wind at 300 feet. See where you end up. Then keep doing this over and over and over until you get good at picking that spot in various wind conditions.

The key to accurate landings involves putting yourself in a position to land on the target at 300 feet. The key to putting yourself in that position involves putting yourself in a spot to get to that 300 foot point at 600 feet. The key to doing that is to put yourself in a good position to be at that spot at 1000 feet.

As you get more experience, accuracy becomes something you start thinking about higher and higher.

There is no substitute for experience, so keep flying a planned pattern and figuring out how much you need to shorten or lengthen your final approach in various wind conditions.

Hanging out realtively close to or over the peas from 1000 feet down is a recipe for a low turn or an obstacle strike, since the one place you pretty much know you will not land is the spot you are over at 300 feet.

Brent

----------------------------------
www.jumpelvis.com

[billvon 2,991]

>So if while in my holding area when I start my landing pattern at
>a grand over where I want to land then I will be close?

No, in fact I don't recommend that. A basic pattern has four parts - entry, downwind, base and final. The entry is where you spiral, fly around and lose altitude. The idea is to put yourself into position, which is slightly upwind and on one side of the target.

Then the 'real' pattern begins. Fly downwind away from the target until it's time to turn to base. When you turn will determine where you land along the wind line, so this is the hardest thing to get right. If the winds are high, turn very soon, just after you pass the target. If the winds are very light, wait a while.

Once you turn base you're committed to a 'normal' pattern. Fly until you're directly downwind of the target, then turn onto final. You should now be straight into the wind and getting ready to land.

If you screw up and turn too soon, S-turns can help you lose altitude on final, provided there's no one behind you and you're still high enough (above 100-200 feet depending on your canopy.) Deep brakes can also help, but only if the winds are moderate to strong. If you screw up and turn too late, you don't have many options - which is why I tell people never to extend their downwind leg over something they don't want to land on. That way if you turn and find yourself not making any progress (or even backing up a bit!) you're not in too much trouble.

You have to know the wind before you can know where to turn to base. Make sure you find this out _before_ you get to 1000 feet. Ask people what the wind is. Up high, make some turns and fly various directions, and see how your canopy drifts. This will give you a clue as to whether the winds are light or strong.

As you jump more, try turning base in different places with different wind conditions and see where that puts you on landing. After a while you will get a feel for the 'sight picture' you have to see to land in the center of the field in moderate winds (for example.) It takes a little while to develop that picture.

[AggieDave 6]

To add to what Bill has said thus far:

Think of your post deployment/pre 1000ft (pattern entry) as your holding area. Its shaped like a flat bottomed cone, the point leading you into your 1000' mark for your pattern entry. This is the area that you will work to get your horizontal and vertical seperation from the rest of the canopy traffic.

What will help you out is actually drawing your landing pattern on a photo of the DZ. Fly the pattern that you draw, not varying except for safety considerations as they present themselves. At that point you'll learn how to adjust your patterns as needed for condititons. Lets say that you land 20ft past your target, then you know to slide your entire pattern 20ft and you'll hit your target.

If you adjust your pattern on the fly you may create confusion for the rest of the canopy traffic, but not only that you won't know how to adjust your pattern for the next dive to fly a good pattern and be accurate.

Just like in freefall, you plan the dive and dive the plan.


I wish I could say I made all of that up myself, but I didn't, that's relating concepts learned from taking Scott Miller's courses a couple of times. If anyone gets the chance, take Scott Miller's basic and advanced courses, take them more then once, you'll be surprised at the improvements you'll make in your canopy skills.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[lisamariewillbe 1]

I think I have been doing what you both said but dont understand enough about the which winds do what, I am still learning that. As far as how I actually set it all up it kinda goes like this, pre-dive I watch other canopys and try to determine if they are in turnbulance while inthere pattern, I watch the wind sock, I look at the map, talk with instructor, tell him where we jump out at according to conditions where i will be at when i deploy, he corrects me when im wrong, then i tell him i am going to land in this 100 acre student area somewhere. When I am in the saddle I head to my holding area look for outs and such, but when it comes to landing I try to pick the route we planned and that I do fine but it is such a big area. When I am in final, and I know some may not agree with this but i go into half brakes at approx 20 feet and hold that until I get to 2 mes then I finish the flare. However it is never the spot I assume I will land in when I am in my holding area. Damn wish I could print this thread out and read it while under canopy lol Thank you so much for the advice and information

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[Hackb431 0]

I'm glad I got you thinking about improving your skills. I need to try the new techniques out after downsizing to that 190 (Instructor approved). My traditional "feel" for the pattern has been thrown off due to the new canopies flight characteristics.

Advice I was given by a TM

"Once you can judge that spot that neither sinks or raises in your vision you have a good idea where you are going to land. Now pick your spot and when on base look over a shoulder to your spot. Turn in for final when your spot is close to becoming the ground that is not moving. If you are in higher winds you will have to turn in earlier"

I have not had a chance to execute this advise but will let you know next weekend. Any other experienced canopy pilots feel free to chime in on this.....please cause I have to hit the peas! lol

HackB A.K.A. "Puppy"

[lisamariewillbe 1]

AWESOME, not only did I get these replies in here but low and behold a new article on the main page for noobies regarding canopy control and landing....THANKS ALL

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[Scrumpot 1]

I think that where this is coming from is a confusion (extrapolation) of: "Don't be, at 1,000 ft, directly over anything you don't want to land upon"...

Meaning pick your "outs" by/before then, rather than finding yourself with extremely LIMITED options only once ou are over that huge stand/grove of trees & thinking "oops ...I'm NOT going to make it"!

Apples & oranges consideration from what you are/have been asking here. Others are giving you some pretty good explanations and insights, but as usual in this medium you will hear opinions from varying perspectives ...some of which themselves (including even sometimes MINE ) might be confused.

As you already know (and have stated) ALWAYS check with your instructor(s)/mentor(s)/coach(es) IN PERSON too. This is a great resource for information, but it is information which should be taken with you (I have had "lowbies" show up at the dropzone with print-outs of their dz.com interactions to ask questions with ...which is GOOD!), and sometimes too maybe, even with a grain of salt (or at least "understanding")

Hope the above also in some form can give you a bit of that "understanding"... at least as far as I have presumed it.

Blue skies,
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[billvon 2,991]

> low and behold a new article on the main page for noobies
>regarding canopy control and landing . . .

Some notes on that article:

1. New gear, off the shelf, is generally pretty well built, and most mfr's do a good job of fitting people. Modifications are generally not needed, and can be dangerous if you don't know what you're doing.

2. I don't recommend 'mastering' a two stage flare. The two stage flare is like training wheels - a way to get you to fly your canopy all the way in. But a real flare doesn't have two stages; it is one continuous movement, that starts out fast and fairly abrupt with large canopies and ends up being slow, steady and very precise for much smaller canopies. The two stage flare is mainly just a way to get you to stop yanking down your toggles all at once.

All IMO, of course.

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

The two stage flare is mainly just a way to get you to stop yanking down your toggles all at once

And yet the biggest problem I see with people with some bit of experience that still have problems with canopy control is their flare. They're not finishing their flare. 1, 2, FINISH is a good way to describe a proper flare, even if its 1, 2...FINISH with 2 having planed out the canopy for a little bit, etc.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Orange1 0]

As a newbie myself, I just want to emphasise the points made above about giving yourself enough space either side of your target. Early on I had the experience of the wind suddenly dropping and a consequent overshoot into a (luckily forgiving) tree. The instructor was firm about not letting me use the wind as an excuse, saying I needed to ensure I always have as many options as possible. It was also my personal turning point in flying the canopy, rather than letting the canopy fly me where it wanted to go. (That was also the jump that made me learn about gentle S's as an alternative to come down earlier. On the plus side, I remembered exactly what to do for a tree landing )

I'm happy to say that since then most of my landings have been where I wanted them.

btw there are some other good links below that new article - personally I like the Bryan Burke one.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Avion 0]

Take a canopy course. I'm glad I did. Scott Miller's course went into much more detail about setting up for landing than AFF did.

Cheers, and good for you about being proactive about your accuracy.

[DeNReN 0]

Seeing how this thread somewhat relates to my Q and already has the attention of some very experiance skydivers...

Long story short.....new gear....big wingloading change....learning canopy....working on accuracy.....yesterday I started on downwind leg of final to high for the winds....instead of s turning etc to burn off some alt. I took my DW leg farther over a patch of forest.....hitting some fairly fierce turbulance I opted to gentlly toggle turn out and back over the field( made a slow U turn onto final) instead of using a flat turn(I was getting jostled around in my harness quite a bit and it unnerved me)....

Would going into 1/4 brakes for a flat turn been more prudent in a turbulant situation?

Sorry for the semi hijack LisaMarie.......and the accuracy thingy will come to you in time I'm sure

[billvon 2,991]

>Would going into 1/4 brakes for a flat turn been more prudent in
>a turbulant situation?

Assuming you have plenty of altitude? It doesn't matter much IMO. A flat turn will cause you to lose less altitude, so if you're low it would make sense. Unless the turbulence is so bad that the canopy is actually collapsing, I don't think a flat turn will keep the canopy any more inflated or anything.

[kelpdiver 2]

Something not to do - don't drift too far away from the LZ while burning off altitude and letting the faster parachutes land. I've done this a few times to stay [WELL] clear of traffic, and other times just not thinking, and as a result found myself heading directly just to make it to the LZ, and effectively making it a much small area.

And Friday made my first night jump an out landing. Fortunately, it wasn't out by much, just a canal and another 50 yards, and the LZ lighting was still effective.

[plowdirt 0]

***

i seen you deleted some posts up there, and now you see alot of factors involved in the landing. I didn't necessararly mean right over but surly right around, take a look at the sim book on your landing procedures, 1k is right, ofcourse yes run out your pattern 1k 600 300 but you will see 1k is in the vicinity.
Don't fixiate yourself on landing in the peas, or be set on a certain spot, that leads into low turns and irratic decisions.

BE COOL and if doesn't go as planned, hey there's always next jump, and the next one.

remember those guys and gals have 100's 1000's 10k's of jumps and it was all one jump at a time.

sorry if I confused you, thats why I said ask the coach #1.

have fun kid and don't forget to smile, let us know how that hop-n-pop goes.


ED

[MakeItHappen 15]

Quote

There is not a forum for accuracy and although I am new I am methodical with everything I do, I know through conversations with coaches and instructors prior to jumping where I exit, where I will most likely be when I pull and the general area I am to land in. What I want to know is how do I look at the area I want to land and actually land there? I know about the "once on final look where the earth stops moving" but how do I pick a spot and make that where the earth stops moving? Sorry if Im asking to much right now, I am just preparing for this weekend and of course I will talk with a instructor at the DZ I jump at prior to taking any advice or suggestion. Just want some general information regarding others experience, thank you for your time

Projected Landing Point (PLP)

The Projected Landing Point (PLP) is that point on the ground that neither rises or falls as you fly in a steady state.

To locate the PLP…..

The PLP is also known as the 'accuracy trick' or 'stationary point'.

How to Use the PLP to figure out your pattern.

Once you have mastered determining the PLP, you can use it to determine your landing pattern.

This is easiest in no-wind conditions.

Say you see that your PLP is x many feet in front of you. If you continued to fly on your current heading, that is where you would land. What you want to do is make a pattern approach to the ground that includes a downwind, base and final legs. These legs are 90 degree turns from each other.

In no-winds all you have to do is wrap the distance to your PLP around a pattern.

In the graphic the blue line represents the distance to the PLP.
Each of three patterns, yellow, red and green, shows how that distance gets wrapped into the pattern distances. (I did not exactly measure, but I hope you get the idea.)

This is actually quite easy for most people. The mind in wonderful in doing stuff like this automatically. When you drive your car you can tell when you need to turn to make a street. The spatial (distances and speeds) information that our mind processes and tells us about is incredible.

With winds - later.

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