intentional cut away

[BMichaeli 1]

I was just wandering what people think about intentional cut aways for people who do not have any. I personal don't have any cut aways and know that the day will come where i am going to have to cut away. on my trailer ride out last weekend one guy visiting was telling me a story of where Vector had come out to the DZ and was giving people the option to purchase a hop-n-pop where they would have to cut away and all they would pay for is the repack and the ride.

So i was just wondering what people think about having an intentional cut away to prepare for a time when they are actually going to need to perform a cut away in an emergency. One thing i was thinking that before you need to get a re-pack to cut away or maybe during a safety day have something like the guy was telling me about.

I know that cutting away provides many complications but does the experience out weighs the consequences? You are expecting to cut away and if you did it high so that you have a lot of time do it.

[Jbag 0]

they have a special tertiary rig out there for just this type of thing so that you will have your main and reserve after the cutaway....

IHYD

[jayrech 0]

Yep they sure do, strong has a great rig called the tridem, The main canopy is rigged so you can induce a mal, Streamer was the one mal that was easily put together with this rig, I used it to complete my first cutaway, talk with your DZO and see if you can get it to your dz, Its a great tool, has three canopies in it, good luck man!

D.S 174.2

Be careful what you say. Some one might take it the right way.

[councilman24 37]

The strong intentional cutaway rig is NOT for beginners. It's intended for TI candidates without a cutaway. It is set up to mimic a Tandem rig, not a regular sport rig. Jumping this rig is NOT just another jump.

I jumped it 3 or 4 years ago. Way too many handles in to many different places for a new jumper.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[councilman24 37]

First, USPA BSR's require a C or D license for an intentional cutaway.

Practice you emergency procedures, make the decisions about what to do with a PC in tow or a total malfunction on the ground and then execute when needed, open so you can decide whether you need to cutaway by 1800', and don't worry about your first one.

Doing an intentional cutaway means that you are using an other then normal rig. It must have three parachutes to be legal. Sometimes that third one is one you have no training on how to use. As I state about the Strong rig isn't for beginners, the handles are not where you expect them. I'm not familiar with the UPT rig.

I put one together years ago where the first canopy is the odd ball one, then you end up in freefall with a normal rig.

But don't bother trying to do one just for training for your first emergency.

IMHO

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[likestojump 3]

I have done about a dozen intentional cutaways. The simple solution was to trashbag the canopy hooked up to the BASE harness that you wore under your sport rig and once open fly it to the designated spot, you just cutaway and go for your regular main.

works like a charm, and is 100% legal.

[Andy9o8 2]

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USPA BSR's require a C or D license for an intentional cutaway.

The smartass in me says that's like requiring a B license before you're allowed to train for a water landing.

[councilman24 37]

No, water landing training is first jump course. And wet water landing training is requiredfor B license, not the other way around. You can train anytime.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[muff528 3]

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No, water landing training is first jump course. And wet water landing training is requiredfor B license, not the other way around. You can train anytime.

That sorta is Andy's point.

[riggerrob 643]

Bad idea!

Wearing a BASE harness - in addition to your regular harness - vastly complicates the dressing and deploying process and vastly increases the risk of a junior jumper panicing, pulling handles out of sequence and killing himself.

[likestojump 3]

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Bad idea!

Wearing a BASE harness - in addition to your regular harness - vastly complicates the dressing and deploying process and vastly increases the risk of a junior jumper panicing, pulling handles out of sequence and killing himself.

Rob, I think it's a bit less drastic than you are making it out to be. Of course, I could be wrong :(

The dressing process, if supervised is very straightforward. Deployment is just an exit on your back with presenting the bag to the wind. Cutaway is probably the most complex part of this, as you need to locate the proper handle, and make sure to chop with your left hand (assuming right hand BOC). After that you are in freefall with a regular sport rig and no extra handle on your body, short of the cutaway handle (usually low profile) in your left hand. Pitch as usual.

Granted not ideal for a low timer, but I am certain you don't need 500 jumps to be competent enough to do this safely.

[chuckakers 425]

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Bad idea!

Wearing a BASE harness - in addition to your regular harness - vastly complicates the dressing and deploying process and vastly increases the risk of a junior jumper panicing, pulling handles out of sequence and killing himself.

How 'bout suggesting a good idea.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[Halfpastniner 0]

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Bad idea!

Wearing a BASE harness - in addition to your regular harness - vastly complicates the dressing and deploying process and vastly increases the risk of a junior jumper panicing, pulling handles out of sequence and killing himself.

I dont think Paul was recommending that newly licensed jumpers should do this to practice their EPs. It really wouldnt help with that anyway, because the process is totally different.

BASE 1384

[timmyfitz 0]

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No, water landing training is first jump course. And wet water landing training is requiredfor B license, not the other way around. You can train anytime.

That sorta is Andy's point.

Try again. Not what Andy said.

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The smartass in me says that's like requiring a B license before you're allowed to train for a water landing.

As Terry said, you can train anytime for wet water landings but a B is not required to do the training.

[tjm 0]

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Bad idea!

Wearing a BASE harness - in addition to your regular harness - vastly complicates the dressing and deploying process and vastly increases the risk of a junior jumper panicing, pulling handles out of sequence and killing himself.

I'll have to agree with Paul, I've done something similar, but istead of trashbagging it I just packed the third canopy (unattached) into a D-bag and tied off the bridal to a seat belt in a Cessna. Exit in a posied position, let the bag go and watch the action above. Works just fine and only introduces one more handle. Just make sure the bottom 3-ring system is on the inside.

Most base rigs are equiped w/ a loop type cutaway handle and can easily be distiquished from a pillow type. I'm not saying it is for beginners, but still a simple, relatively safe and legal way to do it.

If you're not living on the edge; you're taking up too much room!

[muff528 3]

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No, water landing training is first jump course. And wet water landing training is requiredfor B license, not the other way around. You can train anytime.

That sorta is Andy's point.

Try again. Not what Andy said.

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The smartass in me says that's like requiring a B license before you're allowed to train for a water landing.

As Terry said, you can train anytime for wet water landings but a B is not required to do the training.

The way I took Andy's comment is: that requiring a minimum of 200-500 jumps for actual, hands-on, reality-situation, pull-the-handles-and-see-how-it-all-works, in-the-sky training for cutaway and reserve deployment situations is like requiring at least a B license to get real, treading-water-with-a-canopy-draped-over-you training. Both situations would seem to assume that you would not need this training before the required experience level for either situation. I'm not saying I agree or disagree.... only that that's how I read his remark.

[Andy9o8 2]

Your take on what I meant is correct. While I agree that one should have to have some decent experience under one's belt before being allowed to do a live, in-air, intentional cutaway for training purposes, I think having to wait until one has at least a C license is dumb; it misses the whole point of "training". Any number would have to be somewhat arbitrary; but I'd think roughly the 50 - 75 jump range, plus some sort of currency requirement, plus being expressly trained and "cleared" by an instructor for an intentional cutaway jump, would probably be reasonable for most jumpers.

[Ron 10]

I think a cutaway should be required for a "D".

Done in the right environment, it can be done very safely. Done incorrectly, it can easily lead to a fatality.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[muff528 3]

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I think a cutaway should be required for a "D".

Done in the right environment, it can be done very safely. Done incorrectly, it can easily lead to a fatality.

Yes, that can present a whole new set of problems, including the need to train the jumper in the use of the tert. which is worn up front and requires a different body position for deployment. Now he must perform a cutaway and reserve pull and still be prepared to use a totally unfamiliar reserve system.
_____________________________________
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
_____________________________________

But aren't the men who are not free the ones who really need the use of arms?

[JohnnyMarko 1]

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I think a cutaway should be required for a "D".

I'll be good with a 'C' then

[tetra316 0]

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I think a cutaway should be required for a "D".

Done in the right environment, it can be done very safely. Done incorrectly, it can easily lead to a fatality.

Yes, that can present a whole new set of problems, including the need to train the jumper in the use of the tert. which is worn up front and requires a different body position for deployment. Now he must perform a cutaway and reserve pull and still be prepared to use a totally unfamiliar reserve system.

Not true. I have several intentional cut aways with a three canopies without a belly set. A local jumper had a manufacturer make a harness system with a three ring attachment system that you can cutaway. We wore that under out normal rig. Exited with the third canopy in a paper bag and deployed on exit. Just hold onto it for a few to clear the tail.

[muff528 3]

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I think a cutaway should be required for a "D".

Done in the right environment, it can be done very safely. Done incorrectly, it can easily lead to a fatality.

Yes, that can present a whole new set of problems, including the need to train the jumper in the use of the tert. which is worn up front and requires a different body position for deployment. Now he must perform a cutaway and reserve pull and still be prepared to use a totally unfamiliar reserve system.

Not true. I have several intentional cut aways with a three canopies without a belly set. A local jumper had a manufacturer make a harness system with a three ring attachment system that you can cutaway. We wore that under out normal rig. Exited with the third canopy in a paper bag and deployed on exit. Just hold onto it for a few to clear the tail.

So, do you think that would be a better arrangement than the "normal" tertiary system for a low-timer to use for cutaway training purposes? All the handles in the correct places, etc.? I dunno.....just asking.

[Ron 10]

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I'll be good with a 'C' then

Well, I wish you would be a little more excited about having a cutaway as opposed to being even a little afraid of it. Hesitation is a bad thing....And cutaways can really be fun.

And as opposed to night jumps, this is actually a life saving skill.

I just don't understand how we can grant our highest license without having performed a basic life saving procedure, EVER.

I also think that to get a "D" a candidate should have shown proficiency in more than one type of skydiving.

A guy with 500 freefly jumps is not as well rounded as a guy with 250 freefly jumps, 100 RW jumps, 50 CRW jumps, 50 coach jumps, and 50 wingsuit jumps...ect.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[diablopilot 2]

Yes, but at the last BOD meeting it was proven that the only real meaning behind a license is income for the USPA. I'll let you imagine the discussion when a member was denied a 12 hour badge because they didn't have a D license.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Ron 10]

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Yes, but at the last BOD meeting it was proven that the only real meaning behind a license is income for the USPA.

Yes, well if I didn't have to be a member, I would not be. They are about worthless as an organization.

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I'll let you imagine the discussion when a member was denied a 12 hour badge because they didn't have a D license.

Unrelated. 12 hours of freefall does not mean you have met the requirements for a license.

But yes, most have long known that the USPA is just in it for the money and not really interested in doing things that make the sport safer/better.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334