iceland volcano - ash question

[Ronald 0]

Is there any information on the influence of volcanic ash in VFR parachuting flights? Mount St. Helens was some time ago, how did this affect the (turbine?) planes in the region, was there an altitude limitation and for how long? In Europe there seems to be a lot of different rulings now.

[IanHarrop 42]

Not a real answer to your question but this is an interesting article on the 1982 flight that had all 4 engines shut down due to volcanic ash.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Airways_Flight_9


This on a KLM flight with the same problem in 1989 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KLM_Flight_867

"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy

[regulator 0]

Volcanic ash damages machinery. The effect on jet aircraft engines is particularly severe as large amounts of air are sucked in during combustion operation, posing a great danger to aircraft flying near ash clouds. Very fine volcanic ash particles (particularly glass-rich if from an eruption under ice) sucked into a jet engine melt at about 1,100 °C, fusing onto the blades and other parts of the turbine (which operates at about 1,400 °C). They can erode and destroy parts, drive it out-of-balance, and cause jams in rotating machinery.

The effect on the operation of a jet engine is often to cause it to cut out—failure of all a plane's engines is common. The standard emergency procedure when jet engines begin to fail had been to increase power, which makes the problem worse. The best procedure is to throttle back the engines, and to lose height so as to drop below the ash cloud as quickly as possible. The inrush of cold, clean air is usually enough to cool, solidify, and shatter the glass, unclogging the engines.

[feuergnom 28]

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In Europe there seems to be a lot of different rulings now.

most of the (western) euro airports were closed over the weekend, jump-operations (turbine powerd) as well. makes for a quite intersting view if one cares to take a look up in the sky: no aircraft trails to be seen anywhere

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

Another interesting article is on the Discovery Channel website. A DC-8 that accidentaly flew through an ash cloud. The pics of the damage are pretty disturbing.

It's interesting how all the airlines are screaming to reopen the sky, talking about how much money they are losing.

I wonder how loud they'd scream if they had to replace engines on a couple planes after flying through an ash cloud?

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[shropshire 0]

They (airlines) are also after compensation - so who's fault is it and who do they think should pay up.... morons

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[piisfish 140]

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They (airlines) are also after compensation - so who's fault is it and who do they think should pay up.... morons

Iceland should pay. It's THEIR volcano

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[Remster 30]

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They (airlines) are also after compensation - so who's fault is it and who do they think should pay up.... morons

Why are they morons? If your house gets destroyed by a flood, and you want your insurance to pay, are you a moron?

Remster

[airtwardo 7]

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They (airlines) are also after compensation - so who's fault is it and who do they think should pay up.... morons

Why are they morons? If your house gets destroyed by a flood, and you want your insurance to pay, are you a moron?

Yeah..if ya don't have flood insurance.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[shropshire 0]

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They (airlines) are also after compensation - so who's fault is it and who do they think should pay up.... morons

Why are they morons? If your house gets destroyed by a flood, and you want your insurance to pay, are you a moron?

I would have purchased insurance ... the news implies that they did not and expect the government/EU to cough up - see the difference?

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[RMK 3]

This weekend all but two UK dropzones were closed. Sibson was open as it operates outside of controlled airspace and the owners/insurers of the aircraft were OK with it going up.

It was quite hazy at altitude and from about 6-8K and up you could actually smell a bit of sulphur in the air.

"Pain is the best instructor, but no one wants to attend his classes"

[Amazon 7]

What turbines in the NW in 1980

[regulator 0]

So who would they sue? Mother nature?

Last time I heard she had Johnny Cochran as her attorney.

[jsaxton 0]

I'm sure there is a clause in their insurance for this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_majeure

[totter 2]

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sucked into a jet engine melt at about 1,100 °C, fusing onto the blades and other parts of the turbine (which operates at about 1,400 °C). They can erode and destroy parts, drive it out-of-balance, and cause jams in rotating machinery.

There are other issues when you are operating turboprops. Turboprops operate at lower temps, mid 600s to mid 800s C. So the issue is not the silica melting and adhering to the components. The issue has to do with the fact that volcanic ash is super fine particals. The ash will actually get into the oil of the engine, through the air seals, and damage the engine from the inside out.
When I was at Seaborne, in St. Croix, and Montserrat would decide to spew some ash it meant a whole lot of extra work for the mechanics. We would have to change the oil, and filter, in each engine each day that the aircraft flew in ash conditions. Plus do Comp washes.
Now Seaborne is a small company with, at that time, 4 Twin Otters. That was 8 engines total, 12 quarts of oil per engine; 96 qts/oil @ $12/qrt. That doesn't include the 2 hours per engine that it would take a mechanic to complete the job.
This could go on for 4-5 days and this is a small airline.

[billvon 3,009]

>So who would they sue?

Where do people see that they are suing anyone at all?

[timmyfitz 0]

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>So who would they sue?

Where do people see that they are suing anyone at all?

No one in this thread has mentioned any pending lawsuits. The closest so far has been the comment "So who would they sue?".

There have been rumors in the news of possible suits because of business losses, but that's all.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

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>So who would they sue?

Where do people see that they are suing anyone at all?

No one in this thread has mentioned any pending lawsuits. The closest so far has been the comment "So who would they sue?".

There have been rumors in the news of possible suits because of business losses, but that's all.

The airlines are asking for "compensation".

That would come from the governments that shut down the airspace. Presumably because of the arbitrary way huge areas were shut down with little or no actual measurements of the ash levels in the air.

Of course, how big would the complaints and requests for "compensation" be if they hadn't shut down the airspace and planes had been damaged (or crashed and people killed)

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[virgin-burner 1]

i think it's great; it's hardly ever been more quiet..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[piisfish 140]

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i think it's great; it's hardly ever been more quiet..

did you jump this weekend ?

I did

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[timmyfitz 0]

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>So who would they sue?

Where do people see that they are suing anyone at all?

No one in this thread has mentioned any pending lawsuits. The closest so far has been the comment "So who would they sue?".

There have been rumors in the news of possible suits because of business losses, but that's all.

The airlines are asking for "compensation".

Yes, they are asking for compensation. But one airline company(maybe more) is considering filing a lawsuit. And there was also rumors of a possible class action suit. But it is all just talk at this point, no suits filed yet.

[virgin-burner 1]

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i think it's great; it's hardly ever been more quiet..

did you jump this weekend ?

I did

i been busy running up and down a fucking hill with one hell of a big parachute..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[darkwing 5]

I was skydiving in Pullman, Washington the day Mt. St. Helens blew up. It is very memorable. We could see a hugh, "wrath of God" cloud of ugly coming toward us. Lots of lightning in it. I was jumping a brand new, experimental canopy I just built, 160 sqft, 5-cell, with some interesting design features, so it wasn't a high confidence jump. We were in a C-182 owned by Palouse Parachute Club. The FAA called us on the radio and said something like "you guys really shouldn't be up there." We pretty much knew that. We jumped, the canopy was great.

Shortly after we landed, I headed with a friend up to Spokane. That was when ash fall started. Now that was miserable. We had to stop the car, open the door, and dig down to see if we were on the road. Really. Breathing was nasty. Gritty eyes were very unpleasant. I was trapped in Spokane for several days until it rained and I could get out. I went to Cortez, CO and coached swimming for the summer.

The insurance companies very quickly got on the air and said that driving constituted abuse, and they weren't going to pay for engine damage. And there was plenty of engine damage. My ride ended up consuming 1 qt of oil every 1000 miles after that. The air cleaner was packed full of ash. Obviously enough fine ash got through the filter to damage the engine.

I'm pretty sure there were no skydiving turbines in the path of the ash fall. I don't know how long it was before more or less normal flying resumed. It was at least several days I'm sure. Probably a couple of weeks. It was very obvious how damaging the abrasive ash was to engines.

It is interesting visually, but I'd rather not get volcanoed again.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[riggerrob 643]

The volcano in Iceland just cancelled a parachute rigging course in Vancouver, Canada.
A Swiss candidate had flights cancelled out from underneath him.
Talk about a global economy!