councilman24 37 #126 April 8, 2010 John choose to send this by PM but with permission to post. Here it is with my reply. QuoteDear Councilman, If you can pick a rig up by the bridle and the rig with reserve canopy together weighting more than 10 ouunds (and most do) you have got an unsafe condition. (See Bill Von's post) This is exactly what we are looking for. You should be reporting it. Oh yea, you are the guy we are supposed to report to! Why haven't you been reporting it? if the main is in it and you can lift it by the bridle, it should be grounded. If it is one of my rigs I want to know about it immediately. John Sherman Feel free to post any and all of the bove. JS John, Other gear manufacturers disagree with you. I'll defer to them about their gear. That's why I said contact the manufacturer to find out if it is an anomaly. If it's one of your's I'd be contacting Jump Shack. And I now know that it is an anomaly for yours. TerryI'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 37 #127 April 8, 2010 John refers to your 8-10 lbs (I think) in the comment I posted above. FYI, at least two manufacturers have told me that picking up the rig by the reserve bridle is not an anomaly.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skydivesg 7 #128 April 8, 2010 As I understand it, someone on this site keeps a database of all the fatalities over the years. Any chance that person could search for these incidents and then give us links so we can read the reports? I would like to know what the circumstances were in each of these deaths.Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #129 April 8, 2010 Here are all the incidents since 2004: http://www.dropzone.com/fatalities/ This is not complete by any means but it is a global view that is beyond the USPA's mainly US only list.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harmless 0 #130 April 8, 2010 Yes the velcro was an analogy, as 10lbs was sufficient to release the freebag when pulled from an angle. Yet I believe 20lbs was not sufficient when lifting the rig from the bridle.... and the PD143R is the smaller recommended size of reserve for the OJ container. I'll be showing the owner of the rig and speaking with sunpath about it personally."Damn you Gravity, you win again" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rstanley0312 1 #131 April 8, 2010 QuoteYes the velcro was an analogy, as 10lbs was sufficient to release the freebag when pulled from an angle. Yet I believe 20lbs was not sufficient when lifting the rig from the bridle.... and the PD143R is the smaller recommended size of reserve for the OJ container. I'll be showing the owner of the rig and speaking with sunpath about it personally. I apreciate the video that was posted. I think it is important to know all of this. What I do not understand is why we are just seeing this when the video is dated 1991? I would think if this were shown to the FAA that they would gound said rig right away. The FAA is not an entity to really take their time to act as far as this kind of stuff goes. I am still concerned by what the video shows. I even pulled my handles which worked great and pulled my reserve which also worked great and pulled from the container with ease. Yes I have a Vector III and just did all of this with my rigger. I also wonder about the drag the pilot chute creates. It seems that the vector reserve pilot chute actually has a much higher drag then the mesh pilot chutes it just has to be vertical and not sideways. This is not fact this is more of a question. As a Vector owner I would love to hear from vector or Bill Booth himself on all of this.Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it. Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000 www.fundraiseadventure.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark 107 #132 April 8, 2010 QuoteI am still concerned by what the video shows. What the video shows is that you should not try to freefly feet-to-earth during reserve deployment. Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #133 April 8, 2010 Quotewhy we are just seeing this when the video is dated 1991? Maybe because you weren't around the first few times the video came around?Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rstanley0312 1 #134 April 8, 2010 Quote Quote I am still concerned by what the video shows. What the video shows is that you should not try to freefly feet-to-earth during reserve deployment. Mark My reserve came out at that angle just fine though bt i see what you are saying To Remster..... My rigger has been around a long time and he had never watched that before either. Nor had my DZO and she and her dad have been around a very long time?Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it. Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000 www.fundraiseadventure.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #135 April 8, 2010 I can't explain why they haven't seen it before. That's for them to tell you what they do to keep up with skydiving news/gossip/info/stuff. I can tell you that this very video has been linked to on dz.com before, I can remember at least once if not twice, several years ago.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rstanley0312 1 #136 April 8, 2010 QuoteI can't explain why they haven't seen it before. That's for them to tell you what they do to keep up with skydiving news/gossip/info/stuff. I can tell you that this very video has been linked to on dz.com before, I can remember at least once if not twice, several years ago. Roger that.... well it makes a bit more sense then bc I cannot believe the lack of response to the video. If it had been posted before that makes it not as shcking as it was to me. Well I know my rig doesn't have these problems..... I guess the overall lesson is... EP's in time!Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it. Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000 www.fundraiseadventure.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 38 #137 April 9, 2010 I've been informing the interesting posts from this thread to our rigger. We played around this morning with two of the rigs in for repack. The brand new Infinity had a mostly ZP skin but a wide mesh bottom. It had way more drag than the 4 year old Vector 3 pc had which was all nylon, no mesh, and only the small hole at the bottom to get air in through... For whatever that's worth. The Infinity PC has quite a good amount of drag... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
timmyfitz 0 #138 April 9, 2010 QuoteI've been informing the interesting posts from this thread to our rigger. We played around this morning with two of the rigs in for repack. The brand new Infinity had a mostly ZP skin but a wide mesh bottom. It had way more drag than the 4 year old Vector 3 pc had which was all nylon, no mesh, and only the small hole at the bottom to get air in through... For whatever that's worth. The Infinity PC has quite a good amount of drag... How did you determine/test the amount of drag for each PC? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 38 #139 April 9, 2010 Ours was a very informal test of just trailing the bridle around by the pc in the packing room (works for main pcs too if you get concerned about yours getting worn out.) The Infinity had mesh at the bottom which allowed a wider base that air could enter creating the effect of a large mushroom pilot chute. The Vector was long and skinnier and all nylon. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 210 #140 April 9, 2010 QuoteQuoteI can't explain why they haven't seen it before. That's for them to tell you what they do to keep up with skydiving news/gossip/info/stuff. I can tell you that this very video has been linked to on dz.com before, I can remember at least once if not twice, several years ago. Roger that.... well it makes a bit more sense then bc I cannot believe the lack of response to the video. If it had been posted before that makes it not as shcking as it was to me. Well I know my rig doesn't have these problems..... I guess the overall lesson is... EP's in time! For my part I'm unable to get to the video. Possibly others are having the same problems.Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rstanley0312 1 #141 April 9, 2010 QuoteOurs was a very informal test of just trailing the bridle around by the pc in the packing room (works for main pcs too if you get concerned about yours getting worn out.) The Infinity had mesh at the bottom which allowed a wider base that air could enter creating the effect of a large mushroom pilot chute. The Vector was long and skinnier and all nylon. Um..... well that makes no sense because the vector PC has more drag when inflated so I am not sure how your "test" shows otherwise?Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it. Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000 www.fundraiseadventure.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tetra316 0 #142 April 9, 2010 QuoteQuoteOurs was a very informal test of just trailing the bridle around by the pc in the packing room (works for main pcs too if you get concerned about yours getting worn out.) The Infinity had mesh at the bottom which allowed a wider base that air could enter creating the effect of a large mushroom pilot chute. The Vector was long and skinnier and all nylon. Um..... well that makes no sense because the vector PC has more drag when inflated so I am not sure how your "test" shows otherwise? I believe her point was the Infinity pc will inflate much quicker due to the mesh bottom. Meaning you will end up with a reserve quicker with such a pc over a one with a nylon bottom that takes longer to inflate and hence longer to pull the reserve out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rstanley0312 1 #143 April 9, 2010 Quote Quote Quote Ours was a very informal test of just trailing the bridle around by the pc in the packing room (works for main pcs too if you get concerned about yours getting worn out.) The Infinity had mesh at the bottom which allowed a wider base that air could enter creating the effect of a large mushroom pilot chute. The Vector was long and skinnier and all nylon. Um..... well that makes no sense because the vector PC has more drag when inflated so I am not sure how your "test" shows otherwise? I believe her point was the Infinity pc will inflate much quicker due to the mesh bottom. Meaning you will end up with a reserve quicker with such a pc over a one with a nylon bottom that takes longer to inflate and hence longer to pull the reserve out. Ok.... if that's what she meant that makes total sense! I am just getting confused with all of the info in this thread. Some of it makes sense and some of it does not at all Thanks for the clarification. Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it. Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000 www.fundraiseadventure.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,426 #144 April 10, 2010 Hi Rstanley, Quotewell that makes no sense because the vector PC has more drag when inflated so I am not sure how your "test" shows otherwise? Might I ask how you determined this? It is in direct conflict to what John Sherman posted on drag. JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickDG 23 #145 April 10, 2010 I remember when Booth first came out with his meshless/vaneless reserve PC. And I understand Bernoulli's principle well enough to think it was a stroke of genius. Plus it was more snag proof than anything manufactured thus far. But I never owned one. I saw the test data that supported its use but since I was doing a lot of B.A.S.E. jumping at the time I was really tuned in to PC performance and I just couldn't get passed the nagging feeling its slow speed performance just wasn't there. Please don't throw the supporting numbers and test data at me. There's just some things in this sport you decide in your gut! NickD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rstanley0312 1 #146 April 12, 2010 QuoteHi Rstanley, Quotewell that makes no sense because the vector PC has more drag when inflated so I am not sure how your "test" shows otherwise? Might I ask how you determined this? It is in direct conflict to what John Sherman posted on drag. JerryBaumchen Once inflated it will have more drag. I see it as simple physics. I also have discussed this plenty with many others who I know quite wel and trust. Jerry you may even know them... John I know you do. The point is I am done with this. I pulled my reserve out and feel quite good about everything in my rig. I also feel good about a direct pull of my reserve as I have talked to a few people that have done it on a V3 and I watched some video that shows good deployment. I feel god about my Vector..... others may not but that is their personal choice.Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it. Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000 www.fundraiseadventure.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnDeere 0 #147 April 12, 2010 I know my my V3 will deploy the reserve at terminal with the main still in Nothing opens like a Deere! You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,426 #148 April 12, 2010 Hi Rstanley, QuoteI feel god about my Vector..... others may not but that is their personal choice. That is what is really important. On the other hand, I am an engineer, and I like comparative numbers. At the end of the day, you are the person making the jump; no one else. JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rstanley0312 1 #149 April 12, 2010 Quote Hi Rstanley, Quote I feel god about my Vector..... others may not but that is their personal choice. That is what is really important. On the other hand, I am an engineer, and I like comparative numbers. At the end of the day, you are the person making the jump; no one else. JerryBaumchen I do as well Jerry and am looking in to this more just trying to without influence from the "opposing parties". I am not an engineer though... not smart enough for that. Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it. Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000 www.fundraiseadventure.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
muz 1 #150 April 13, 2010 QuoteI remember when Booth first came out with his meshless/vaneless reserve PC. And I understand Bernoulli's principle well enough to think it was a stroke of genius. Plus it was more snag proof than anything manufactured thus far. Nick (or anyone), as far as you know, is there any UPT docs or threads here discussing/comparing this kind of PC? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
