IS this safe/legal ??

[Highradwarrior 1]

Is it safe or legal? Most likely not! But as other have said..... If all participants were aware of what was going to be attempted and were fine with such a stunt....... end of story! Adults or not, we are all accountable for our actions..... such is the way of life. If it were a tandem student, I hope that they would be informed of the possible complications! All decisions rest on the end user........... whether they decide to comply is another argument!!!!

Sun, Fun, and Blue Ones


Respect Existence, Or Expect Resistance!

[Squeak 17]

normiss

I think there's a couple of folks missing the point that it's an entirely unnecessary risk and is forbidden by the manufacturers.
In short, it's fucking stupid.

Hmm you mean like skydiving

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[Shredex 0]

swoosh

Don't care what the legalities are, you ride my drogue bridal I'll break your face.

Tink1717

if any vidiot dud that to my drogue, he/she'd be needing a new set of teeth when we land.

You ladies act like the person did this without the TI knowing.
This was a stunt planned out by the entire group and then executed. There were no surprises and everything went exactly to plan.
I'm betting there was plenty of ground AND air prep to make sure the drogue release system was going to hold and not deploy pre-maturely.

[potatoman 0]

I Like.

It might be stupid, to some. To me it's awesome.

Anyone seen someone do a headdown on the drogue yet?

(I would however keep my head semi away from the rig though....for unplanned deployment....)

You have the right to your opinion, and I have the right to tell you how Fu***** stupid it is.
Davelepka - "This isn't an x-box, or a Chevy truck forum"
Whatever you do, don't listen to ChrisD.

[normiss 798]

Ah.
So the pole dancer deploys the main and kills all three players.
Awesome plan.

Still not worth the risk IMO.

Darwin is still hard at work keeping up with human stupidity, so it works out in the wash.

[billvon 2,989]

>I think there's a couple of folks missing the point that it's an entirely unnecessary
>risk and is forbidden by the manufacturers.

Eh, if a movie company shows up at a tandem manufacturer's doorway one day with a big bag of money, a liability rider and a desire to film a stunt for a movie with a drogue hanger, I have a feeling said tandem manufacturer would suddenly decide that it was a necessary risk. Heck, I'd do it provided I could choose riggers, passengers and freeflyers.

[Arvoitus 1]

normiss

Ah.
So the pole dancer deploys the main and kills all three players.
Awesome plan.

Still not worth the risk IMO.

Darwin is still hard at work keeping up with human stupidity, so it works out in the wash.

What is is that offenses you so much about this? The fact it might kill 3 people or the fact the it involves a tandem? Do you get this upset over wingsuit rodes and/or wingsuit/canopy docks? Or are they okay since they can only kill 2 people and/or don't involve tandems?

Besides why do people assume that a premature would be instant guaranteed black death on the tandem barber polling stunt? Its not like the tandem main is going to instantly launch from the container killing everybody within sight if the person standing on the tandem pair causes a premature. The pull from the drogue is 'wasted' on the person holding on to the drogue bridle and so if that person does manage to dislodge the pins from the main they most likely would notice it and all they have to do is lean back and let go of the bridle.

Your rights end where my feelings begin.

[gowlerk 2,190]

It always amazes me. Skydivers. They take up a risky adrenaline sport, then tell themselves that the drive to the DZ is riskier than jumping. Believe that the way they learned is the absolute best and that DZs other than the one they are emotionally attached to are inferior. Criticize what they don't do themselves as beyond the boundaries. And show a remarkable ability to take utube videos out of context.

Yes, there are risks to this stunt. No, that does not make it "wrong" as long as the participants are all willing to assume the risk. Just like the crazy stuff your mothers all wish you wouldn't do.

Rant over.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[BMFin 0]

Arvoitus

What is is that offenses you so much about this?

Because tandem!

[Calvin19 0]

gowlerk

It always amazes me. Skydivers. They take up a risky adrenaline sport, then tell themselves that the drive to the DZ is riskier than jumping. Believe that the way they learned is the absolute best and that DZs other than the one they are emotionally attached to are inferior. Criticize what they don't do themselves as beyond the boundaries. And show a remarkable ability to take utube videos out of context.

Word.

[riggerrob 643]

gowlerk

It always amazes me. Skydivers. They take up a risky adrenaline sport, then tell themselves that the drive to the DZ is riskier than jumping. Believe that the way they learned is the absolute best and that DZs other than the one they are emotionally attached to are inferior. Criticize what they don't do themselves as beyond the boundaries. And show a remarkable ability to take utube videos out of context.

Yes, there are risks to this stunt. No, that does not make it "wrong" as long as the participants are all willing to assume the risk. Just like the crazy stuff your mothers all wish you wouldn't do.

Rant over.

................................................................................

Nice rant!

[riggerrob 643]

Bill Booth has a rant about risk homeostasis.

The gyst of Bill's rant is that as soon as a skydiver has survived one stunt - a few dozen times - they get bored and feel the need to up the risk.

To get the same risk/adrenaline rush as my first jump, I would have to freefall - off a low cliff - onto a railroad track - surrounded by black-berry bushes and a raging river - with a parachute older than me - etc.

[gowlerk 2,190]

riggerrob

Bill Booth has a rant about risk homeostasis.

The gyst of Bill's rant is that as soon as a skydiver has survived one stunt - a few dozen times - they get bored and feel the need to up the risk.

To get the same risk/adrenaline rush as my first jump, I would have to freefall - off a low cliff - onto a railroad track - surrounded by black-berry bushes and a raging river - with a parachute older than me - etc.

Yes indeed it's true. But now they can progress to WS BASE Proxy flying. It already has cool initials, and maybe soon it's very own fatality list page. Plus if they do it a few dozen times it's very unlikely they will live long enough to suffer from that dreaded boredom thing!

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[Andy9o8 2]

normiss

Still not worth the risk IMO.

The key word in that is "IMO". 99+% of the world think you and I are batshit crazy for jumping out of airplanes at all.

[normiss 798]

Understood and agreed.

To me, there's a lot of risk mitigation in skydiving.
Not so much in some acts...I prefer to not get deep into a chain of events.
I have zero interest in BASE jumping period.
You could not force me to bungee jump either.

I certainly do not want someone standing on the back of a tandem rig holding onto the opening pin.
Simply too much risk for me.

[mjosparky 4]

Quote

Yes, there are risks to this stunt. No, that does not make it "wrong" as long as the participants are all willing to assume the risk. Just like the crazy stuff your mothers all wish you wouldn't do.

If this was in fact a “tandem” then it is wrong on many levels. The jump was not for the entertainment of the TM or the other clown. The TM’s job is to provide a safe, as safe as possible, to a paying customer. The passenger doesn’t understand the dangers of a normal jump much less what is portrayed in the video. If the TM has become bored and jaded with slinging meat maybe he should take a break.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[gowlerk 2,190]

mjosparky

Quote

Yes, there are risks to this stunt. No, that does not make it "wrong" as long as the participants are all willing to assume the risk. Just like the crazy stuff your mothers all wish you wouldn't do.

If this was in fact a “tandem” then it is wrong on many levels. The jump was not for the entertainment of the TM or the other clown. The TM’s job is to provide a safe, as safe as possible, to a paying customer. The passenger doesn’t understand the dangers of a normal jump much less what is portrayed in the video. If the TM has become bored and jaded with slinging meat maybe he should take a break.

Sparky

If the passenger is not an experienced skydiver fully aware of and agreeing to the planned stunt, then of course this is more than just wrong. It would be negligence. My comment makes the assumption that this is not a normal passenger tandem, but a pre-planned stunt.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[flygirl1220 0]

There was just an article in parachutist this past month about this. With a very similar picture. If I recall it said that the TI can be suspended?? I could be wrong though. I'm at work right now and don't have the magazine right in front of me.

[Hajo 0]

You´re right..
It was in the current Parachutist issue..
Short: if pictures (or stories) like this will come to the manufacturer´s knowing, they will cut the licence of the TI..

Including hanging from the cheststrap of the TS, standing on the rig,...

--------------------------------------------------

With sufficient thrust,
pigs just fly well

[rwieder 0]

+1

I can't believe how many sky divers that condone this insane stunt. A premie would kill a at least the "Top Passenger" It's stunts like this that will catch on at the DZ's and lives could be taken. We hardly be doing our selves any favors if someone did lose their life pulling this obviously unwise "stunt" As sky divers we just don't need it. IMHO.

Best-
Richard

[rwieder 0]

This is nothing more than an incident waiting to happen. Man don't we lose enough sky divers each year without "Ramping Up" the potential scenario of having more sky divers losing their lives? Tandem rigs are not designed to have some CLOWN riding on top of the container hanging onto the drogue lanyard showing off and geeking the camera. This activity is absurd and USPA needs to put a stop to this activity ASAP. Hello Earth to USPA, come in please!

Best-
Richard

[Doug_Davis 0]

rwieder

This is nothing more than an incident waiting to happen. Man don't we lose enough sky divers each year without "Ramping Up" the potential scenario of having more sky divers losing their lives?

Look I dont want to get into a manhood measuring contest but I did want to provide a little perspective on things. I returned to skydiving, as a sport, last year (after having been airborne my whole career).

I have been a professional whitewater kayak instructor and participant for over 20 years. Its what I do for a living. I have served on the board of directors for the American Canoe Association (the paddle sports version of the USPA), and still serve on the national River Kayaking Committee for the national Safety, Education and Instruction Council. I help set national policy on what is taught and who get to teach it in the whitewater world.

In 2012 (latest available data) the paddle sports world had approx 26 million participants. With 135 fatalities. For a rate of .506 fatalities per 100k participants. Two of which were very good friends of mine, and one of which I participated in the body recovery for.

During that same time period according to the USPA, there were approximately 3.1 million jumps and 19 fatalities, for a rate of .6 fatalities per 100k jumps.

So while skydiving is seen as much more dangerous than your average kayak trip, your fatality rate is almost on par; ie as a sport and industry you guys are doing a great job in terms of safety.

Would having zero deaths be better than 19? Sure. You should always strive to improve. But I just wanted to provide some perspective that given the big picture this sport is actually doing really well, and in comparison to other extreme sports such as climbing or mountaineering (3per100k if I remember correctly) you are doing much much better.

Cheers!

[wmw999 2,439]

One of the reasons why it's so very hard to compare skydiving with any other sport statistically is because the duration of the actual skydive is so short, and most other sports don't really lend themselves to statistics by instance; they do it by time spent as a rule. Maybe the closest would be if they did skiing by run, except that one generally makes a whole lot more ski runs in a day than skydives.

That said, it's way safer than it used to be; equipment problems used to kill more people before. Now it's far more people-oriented.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[davelepka 4]

Quote

So while skydiving is seen as much more dangerous than your average kayak trip, your fatality rate is almost on par; ie as a sport and industry you guys are doing a great job in terms of safety.

Your premise is retarded. So just because the fatality rate is close to that of other sports, the poster you replied to should not be upset that some jumpers are engaged in clearly stupid and dangerous behavior?

I'm sure if I dug long enough, I could find a sport with a much lower fatality rate than skydiving, that would make skydiving look terrible. I'm sure I could also find one with a higher rate that would make skydiving look great. Neither one would justify the stupid behavior in the photo that spawned this thread.

Here's the other MAJOR difference. There is very little stopping 'anyone' from buying a kayak or a rope and going out to paddle or climb on their own. Rivers and rocks are just there for the taking, and it's not tough for people to access them.

Compare that to skydiving. At a minimum, you need an airplane owner and a pilot, both of which have a lot invested in being an airplane owner and/or pilot, and don't want to see that harmed by being a part of someone making an amateur skydive.

Then you need a rig, which not something you can just pick up at the local outfitters. A lay person would have a very hard time getting a hold of a rig, having assembled, and having the slightest idea how to operate it.

So the end result is that that VAST majority of jumps, like something on the high side of 99.9999999%, are made at a DZ which has it's own interests to protect, and thus is going to be keeping a fairly close eye on the actions of all the jumpers.

Given the fairly strict controls over jumpers, and the severely limited access to jumping, it's not surprising that the fatality rate is similar to that of other sports. Can you imagine the safety record of paddling if every river was privately owned, and every paddler had to go through a training course in order to paddle there, and then was watched over before/during/after every time they got in the water?

[pchapman 279]

Kayaking:

Doug_Davis

For a rate of .506 fatalities per 100k participants. [...][

Skydiving:

Quote

for a rate of .6 fatalities per 100k jumps.

I'll have to make a correction to your statements that kayaking and skydiving are similar in fatality rates. Let me explain:

It is often tough to compare fatality rates, especially when the units in the data are different, as above. They may look about the same here but if an average skydiver were doing 100 jumps a year [edit: just as an example, not hard data], the skydiving fatality rate would be about 100 times higher than kayaking per participant. There's also the confusion in "per participant" rates when you combine those "in the sport" vs. those trying it just once. In skydiving there's a huge number of the latter, and I'm not sure how it is in kayaking. One can always look at risks per exposure vs. per year, and for regular participants vs. one timers.

Doing just a quick calculation, let me double check the skydiving stats:
Using USPA numbers, averaging from 2010-2012, there were about 19 non-student fatalities per year, for an average 34000 members. While not all members are jumping, if you want to use membership as the criteria, the fatality rate is 56 per 100k non-student participants. (And it would be higher for those actually jumping, and excluding advanced students who are members too.)

So this is a measuring contest, in skydiving one might say we're very roughtly 100 times better than kayaking when it comes to killing ourselves.

So while you may have something to contribute based on your leadership experience in another active sport with hazards to mitigate, we do need to recognize that the fatality rates are vastly different. Thanks.