spiral turns

[point_code 0]

when doing spiral turns, how far can you pull down on your toggle before it will cause the canopy to become unstable? can it "stall" while turning?

[MrBrant 0]

it 'twill be differnt for each canopy,

[AggieDave 6]

As stated, it is different for each canopy and its sort of an open ended question dependant on a number of factors (canopy trim, brake settings, turblence, etc).

Firstly, please no spirals below 1500ft (atleast), since folks are in their holding area setting up for the patter at that altitude.

Secondly, it is possible to induce linetwists, so above your personal decision altitude would be a good choice.

Thirdly and most importantly, talk to your instructors about it, then go out and do a high pull or a hop-n-pop and try it out for yourself.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[point_code 0]

well, I only ask because in the middle of my second jump my instructor told me (via 1 way radio) to try a couple spiral turns. He instructed me to "tunr" then farther, then farther, then farther. I pulled the toggle considerably farther than I had ever done previously, however in my mind I remembered that a canopy could stall if both risers are pulled too far for too long. I didn't recall covering in class what could happen if you pull the turning toggle down too far, and I reckon I just didn't want to take a chance on doing something wrong until my instructor and I had discussed it beforehand, and I had an opportunity to ask questions. I'm not a wuss by any means, however I intend to respect this sport and have made my mind up that I won't take any unecessary risks. with that said.............what is a spiral turn anyways?

[kelpdiver 2]

One thing they didn't teach me well in FJC is what too hard of a turn was, or what they meant by don't turn below XX feet. So I turned about as fast as a 747 might, barely pulling down on a toggle to do so.

With a lot of canopies, you can pull both toggles down as far as you can reach and still not stall the parachute. Depends on the length of the brake lines.

[mdrejhon 8]

I learned something very educational in a dramatic way...

When the dropzone put me off a student canopy (Manta) and onto a novice canopy (Sabre), and I opened higher at 4000 to test it out, I attempted a test hard turn at 3000 feet sometime after controllability check, wind direction and flare tests.

Ooops! One 360 degree spin and line twists. Kicked out of it fine though, and I was at 3000 feet. (I opened high which gave me plenty of time to play)

Never again I'll just pull a toggle like that. I was warned to be gentle with it, but I didn't even think I jabbed it....It was just twitchy compared to the Manta.

ALWAYS gradual motion, I learned, when starting a spiral... You can linetwist a canopy just by toggle turns alone if you're too aggressive!! So from now on, I always start my 3000 feet->2000 feet "fun spirals" by gradually pulling down the toggle very slowly as the G-forces build up a bit... and stop by letting up very slowly when it feels too scary. Don't do spirals before your instructor says it's okay to do so. I had the airspace all to myself and everyone else was almost landed by now, but your dropzone may not allow it.

(Don't worry... at 1000ft it's always the traditional approach pattern and my landings were standup that weekend, a couple of minor 1-foot-early flare mistakes but still softer landings than the Manta... so my praticing up high REALLY paid off. On a canopy change, always a good idea to pull high like 4000 and notify the dropzone & load about this in advance...)

I don't want to be a 100 jump wonder... no way... but please don't make the mistake I did... This is simply extenuating circumstances of the "please don't make my mistake" so I am posting anyway. Be gentle with that canopy after your first downsize from student canopy to novice canopy. (And even on your first canopy. And subsequent. But you develop habits on your first canopy that needs to be modified for the next canopy. I knew that, but I got unexpected linetwists!). And always... listen, listen, listen to your dropzone!

[happythoughts 0]

The first rule of spirals is to look behind you. That is where you are about to go. Behind you and down.

Next, don't f-up the pattern. Do it away from the dz landing area.

Don't flip-flop. If you bury a toggle, don't whip it back with the other one. Inertia may throw you into a superior set of line twists.

Learn how to fly straight for a while before experimenting.

[kevinwhelan 0]

Also watch your altitude you can fire a student cyprus under a perfect canopy with hard toggel turns

"be honest with yourself. Why do I want to go smaller? It is not going to make my penis longer." ~Brian Germain, on downsizing

[ryoder 1,590]

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You can linetwist a canopy just by toggle turns alone if you're too aggressive!!

Correction: You can line twist some canopies by toggle turns alone.

In my experience, the ability of a canopy to put its self into line twist is a function of aspect ratio. I have an old National Renegade with an AR of 3.0. Even loaded at barely 1.0 burying a toggle will generate line twist in less than 360 degrees. In contrast I have a Diablo (AR ~ 2.0), loaded at 1.2 which won't line twist no matter what you do with it.

(Aspect ratio = span^2/area. For rectangular planforms, this reduces to span/chord.)

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[mdrejhon 8]

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Correction: You can line twist some canopies by toggle turns alone.

Thanks for the correction. I knew an expert jumper would hop in if I said anything incorrect....

Yeah, you're right. That never happened with the earlier Manta, regardless of what I did at play altitude.

[dragon2 2]

An easy way to get some canopies into linetwists is a sharp turn one way directly followed by a sharp turn the other way.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[AndyMan 7]

It may be true that you can only do this to some canopies, but the difference is not aspect ratios.

I've put both my Triathlon loaded at 1.0 and my Stiletto loaded at 1.7 into line twists by being dumb with the toggles.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[ryoder 1,590]

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It may be true that you can only do this to some canopies, but the difference is not aspect ratios.

I've put both my Triathlon loaded at 1.0 and my Stiletto loaded at 1.7 into line twists by being dumb with the toggles.

_Am

And you just reinforced my point:

CANOPY___ASPECT-RATIO
Diablo_____2.02
Triathlon___2.25
Stiletto_____2.68
Renegade__3.00

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[The111 1]

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In contrast I have a Diablo (AR ~ 2.0), loaded at 1.2 which won't line twist no matter what you do with it.

Even if you yank one toggle down and immediately release it and yank the other?

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[mdrejhon 8]

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Even if you yank one toggle down and immediately release it and yank the other?

Never happened with my previous Manta. It didn't mind. (docile student canopy)

[kelpdiver 2]

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And you just reinforced my point:

CANOPY___ASPECT-RATIO
Diablo_____2.02
Triathlon___2.25

Triathlon at 2.25 isn't that far off, and I've had a couple twitchy moments with a Spectre which is around 2.1.

[ryoder 1,590]

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In contrast I have a Diablo (AR ~ 2.0), loaded at 1.2 which won't line twist no matter what you do with it.

Even if you yank one toggle down and immediately release it and yank the other?

I've done it lot's of times. The only line twist I've ever had was during opening.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[tnscorcoran 0]

Great question - I was wondering the same. A couple of extra questions-
1) Is there a rough guideline of where the canopy is in relation to you that you should not exceed? i.e. if the corner of the canopy is at eye level, then don't go any more.
or 2) Can you effectively bury it as much as you like as long as the toggle movements are slow and gradual

[phoenixlpr 0]

It`s recommended to maintain some line tension all the time.

I`ve played and tried everything with a big F111 and it had a non collapsible PC.

I would not do the same with my currect canopy with kill line PC. I think its not recommended to do any negative or 0g with a canopy loaded more than 1.0WL.

I was told that canopies are limited by design so you can not do a loop and fall into the canopy and getting wrapped.

[ryoder 1,590]

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2) Can you effectively bury it as much as you like as long as the toggle movements are slow and gradual

That Renegade (aspect ratio 3.0) I mentioned was built during a period when the mfgrs were experimenting with high aspect ratios. It doesn't matter how fast you pull the toggle, if you hold one toggle all the way down, it will go into line twist in less than 360 degrees.

There are no one-size-fits-all rules about canopies.

Canopies with with low AR (aprox 2.1) are stable in deep brakes. I had a ParaFoil (AR = 1.9) that I used to take hands wraps, go into a full stall, and then hold until the cells depressurized, the span shrunk about 15%, and the canopy was actually flying (sort of) backwards.

At higher AR, canopies are inclined to be unstable in deep brakes, (i.e. they want to turn left or right), and in a sustained stall, they will fold in on the tail and assume the "fortune cookie" shape.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[KATO33 0]

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Even if you yank one toggle down and immediately release it and yank the other?

I've done this as well with My Safire and have had no problems.

Blue Skies Black Death

[BigSky 2]

On my first couple of jumps I was a little disappointed about how slow the big canopy I am jumping turned because I wanted to do a spiral like I had done on my tandems. I was telling one of the more experienced jumpers this in the bar that night and he told me to wrap the toggle around my hand a few times and give it a good pull all the way down. Now I'm thinking that maybe that is not such a good Idea.

“Sometimes when I reflect back on all the beer I drink I feel ashamed. Then I look into the glass and think about the workers in the brewery and their hopes and dreams. If I didn’t drink this beer, th

[mdrejhon 8]

I think spiral turns get more addictive when you're off the student canopy.

As long as I stop doing it above 1500-2000ft, the dropzone's happy with me.

[JayCam 0]

Your profile says you have done one jump so you are probably like me and flying student canopies which are rigged not to stall (using toggles anyway). If your canopy is anything like my student manta you should have no problems pulling all the way down on one and holding for 5 turns. I found that after five turns the g force gets too much and that the descent rate just freaks me out...

J

[Avion 0]

I fly a Spectre 210 and load it about 0.9:1. I can hold a toggle all the way down. I pull it down moderately fast, and after a second or so the canopy spirals straight for the ground. It took me a while before I could do that. The toggle pressure seemed high at first as did the G force. But after working up to it 6-8 jumps, it's one of my favorite things, along with pulling out of that dive at 60+ mph. I demoed a 230 Silhouette which has a higher aspect ratio. Even though it was bigger, it dived and spun noticably faster.

Cheers