davelepka 4 #51 March 18, 2010 You are correct about the title of the thread, however all of the other possibilities being discussed were AFF courses. You're assertion was that your course of action was a significant savings over others that were posted, as well as your local DZ. It's only fair to point out that your example was not apples to apples. In terms of .50 per mile, that's the number the IRS came up with. I have to figure that the IRS isn't giving anything away, so after fuel, upkeep, and depreicaition, that's probably a pretty fair number. Even then, I cut that number in half to .25 per mile, and you still just barely came out on top. In your favor were other factors, some of which I pointed out like the lack of pressure due to time, and the ability to schedule around the weather. Also working in your favor, being a poor college student at the time, would have been the deffered cost of the wear and tear on your vehicle. You may have incurred the costs, but they were not immediate costs, and you had to time recover your finances before those bills came due. The point is that in the end, the actual savings are very little. How and when the costs are incurred may have played a real factor in making the training a possibiliy, but the costs were there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hausse 0 #52 March 18, 2010 QuoteYou are correct about the title of the thread, however all of the other possibilities being discussed were AFF courses. Yes and that is because very few DZ's still offer the option (which is sad in my opinion). Had my local DZ offered an S/L program, chances are the cost would have been much lower but since they didn't that was not an option. So I AM comparing apples to apples. It's simple, where can I get a good license for the least money. I bought my car in January 2007 for $800, drove about 40k miles in it until I sold it in 2009 for $700. I put new tires on once (less then $200), changed the oil every 3k miles and had maybe a total repair cost of $1000 (best car every, OP might not be so lucky so your assumption that I might have been calculating too little is entirely reasonable). For me personally I am 100% convinced that it was MUCH cheaper to do it the way I did it and that I could have not afforded it at the local DZ. Anyways, I think if the OP has the opportunity to fly to WI this summer, ($300 plain ticket), buy a cheap tent (60$) and stay on the DZ he should be able to get his license for under $1500 if he's good at living cheap. And on the way to his license, he'll have some awesome times at Wissota. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jsaxton 0 #53 March 18, 2010 QuotePlus, they fly what has proven to be the most stable platform for skydiving (PAC 750) no airplane is stable with a bunch of floaters hanging out the side. I've been in more than one stall in a 750 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #54 March 18, 2010 QuoteQuotePlus, they fly what has proven to be the most stable platform for skydiving (PAC 750) no airplane is stable with a bunch of floaters hanging out the side. I've been in more than one stall in a 750 I was wondering what he meant by that... Personally, as a jumper, gimme an Otter any day...Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jsaxton 0 #55 March 19, 2010 Funny thing Remmi, I was doing an observer ride in an Otter this last weekend, PIC cut way back and the floaters were out there for quite a while, she started shaking a little but never needed positive control to avoid a stall, I was really surprised how little rudder was needed with 6 floaters out too. QuoteQuoteQuotePlus, they fly what has proven to be the most stable platform for skydiving (PAC 750) no airplane is stable with a bunch of floaters hanging out the side. I've been in more than one stall in a 750 I was wondering what he meant by that... Personally, as a jumper, gimme an Otter any day... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StangMan90 0 #56 March 19, 2010 I watched a presentation this past weekend for Safety Day out at SkyDance in Davis, CA where Ray Ferrell showed charts and data concerning stall situations regarding floaters vs. airspeed and how many jumpers are waiting in line and where. This was for the most commonly used aircraft in skydiving (Otters, Skyvans, PAC 750s, etc.) Why don't you ask him his opinion? Or was he lying when he told us that a PAC 750 flying at 95 knots could have floaters hanging out all day long without a problem? If I remember correctly, he said that if a pilot is trying to fly at 75 knots with floaters, then there might be a problem. At least that's what I remember. But since I don't know s**t compared to the experienced skydivers on this site who know so much more about airplanes than I do, I'll stick with Ray's opinion. Fellow attendees of SkyDance 2010 Safety Day chime in any time. Ask anyone who was there what their opinions are about which airplane is most stable for skydiving. One thing you can count on with the forums on this site: Somebody is always ready to pounce and contradict. I really enjoy keeping up with some of the cyber-spats that develop. It keeps things lively and un-boring. Peace out. Joesimplify Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #57 March 19, 2010 Quotehe told us that a PAC 750 flying at 95 knots could have floaters hanging out all day long without a problem? If I remember correctly, he said that if a pilot is trying to fly at 75 knots with floaters, then there might be a problem Yeah, it's called stall speed, and if you fly above it you're flying, it go below it you're stalling. Every airplane has one (except AN-2) and it differs based on configuration i.e., flaps up/down, gear up/down, and for jump planes, the number and position of floaters. It's the job of the PIC (pilot in command) to know these different speeds, and keep the airplane above them. None of this is unique to the PAC. Ray Ferrell wasn't lying to you on Safety Day, he was just telling you what he wanted you to hear. Did he also mention that he is the US importer for the PAC 750? If you go to a Subaru dealership, they'll tell you that all of their cars are equipped with all-wheel drive, and that it helps them to hold the road in slippery conditions. While this may be true, they don't go out of their way to tell you that Audi, BMW, Mercedes also produce cars with all-wheel drive, now do they? QuoteOne thing you can count on with the forums on this site: Somebody is always ready to pounce and contradict. That's what happens when you're wrong. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StangMan90 0 #58 March 19, 2010 "If you go to a Subaru dealership, they'll tell you that all of their cars are equipped with all-wheel drive, and that it helps them to hold the road in slippery conditions. While this may be true, they don't go out of their way to tell you that Audi, BMW, Mercedes also produce cars with all-wheel drive, now do they?" _______________ So, let's test that logic. PAC 750 is a Subaru. Does that mean that a Twin Otter is the BMW? Skyvan is the Mercedes? Surely you can come up with something better than that. Yes, I know that Ray imports PAC 750s. That doesn't change the hard engineering facts about the other aircraft. Besides, he knows I won't have the cash for a new PAC 750 until at least next payday, so I'm sure he wasn't trying to sell me one. Joesimplify Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #59 March 19, 2010 >no airplane is stable with a bunch of floaters hanging out the side. While perhaps literally true, every skydiving aircraft can be flown safely all day with a bunch of floaters hanging out the side. (If you couldn't do that you could not safely fly jump runs.) However, it's more work, and when you add the other constraints involved in flying jumpers (i.e. they want a cut, they don't want to lose altitude on jump run, you have to stay in formation) you can sometimes run out of control authority and/or airspeed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #60 March 19, 2010 Quote so I'm sure he wasn't trying to sell me one. Maybe not, but you sure bought what he was selling! Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jsaxton 0 #61 March 19, 2010 Cut him a break Dave, once he has a couple thousand jumps and his PPL ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #62 March 19, 2010 I'm sure he wasn't trying to sell you a PAC, but he is trying to sell everyone on the idea of a PAC. I'm not saying that the PAC doesn't make a suitable jumpship, but there's no reason to believe that it's any safer than any other aircraft in widespread use as a jumpship. You could almost argue that the low tail makes it less safe than an Otter or a T-tail King Air. The issue of tail strikes aside, the low tail is more prone to dirty air off the floaters than a higher tail. Cleaner air means greater control authority at lower airspeeds. Stalls are governed by angle of attack, and angle of attack is controlled by the elevator (tail). Greater control authority over the elevator means greater control over stalls. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jsaxton 0 #63 March 19, 2010 Hey Bill, a 95KTS jumprun might improve our points on the hill, could you talk to the competition people about that ;) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjumpenfool 2 #64 March 19, 2010 QuoteHey Bill, a 95KTS jumprun might improve our points on the hill, could you talk to the competition people about that ;) Just remember where the Pac's tail is....Birdshit & Fools Productions "Son, only two things fall from the sky." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StangMan90 0 #65 March 19, 2010 "Cut him a break Dave, once he has a couple thousand jumps and his PPL ... " ______________________ Thanks, I'm working on it. I'll check back in after that's accomplished. Give me a little time. _________________________ "Maybe not, but you sure bought what he was selling!" _________________________ If I had an extra $1.2 million laying around needing to be spent on a new aircraft, I think I'd seriously consider a PAC 750. That will have to wait until the above-mentioned accomplishments have been achieved, though. _________________________ "Just remember where the Pac's tail is...." _________________________ I hope not between my legs like my tail is! You skygods are totally awesome! Thanks for putting me in my place! Joe simplify Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hausse 0 #66 March 19, 2010 Quote "Cut him a break Dave, once he has a couple thousand jumps and his PPL ... " ______________________ Thanks, I'm working on it. I'll check back in after that's accomplished. Give me a little time. _________________________ "Maybe not, but you sure bought what he was selling!" _________________________ If I had an extra $1.2 million laying around needing to be spent on a new aircraft, I think I'd seriously consider a PAC 750. That will have to wait until the above-mentioned accomplishments have been achieved, though. _________________________ "Just remember where the Pac's tail is...." _________________________ I hope not between my legs like my tail is! You skygods are totally awesome! Thanks for putting me in my place! Joe Lol ever considered that they might be right (too)? Nobody was rude, they just argued a different opinion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #67 March 19, 2010 Quote I hope not between my legs like my tail is! You skygods are totally awesome! Thanks for putting me in my place! Joe Welcome to DZ.com, Joe, and the beginning of the end of any idealistic notions you may have had about skydivers and skydiving. Let the more cynical enjoyment of the sport begin."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #68 March 19, 2010 Quote Quote I hope not between my legs like my tail is! You skygods are totally awesome! Thanks for putting me in my place! Joe Welcome to DZ.com, Joe, and the beginning of the end of any idealistic notions you may have had about skydivers and skydiving. Let the more cynical enjoyment of the sport begin. And YOU're not a skygod? Miss "I have a full page ad made about me in Parachutist"? Jo: step back, have a bear, re-read the thread. No one was being mean. Teasing, maybe. But there is also lots of information you seem to be ignoring because it contradicts what 1 person told you (who may have ulterior motives, like, you know, making a plane more wanted by skydivers and hence driving its demand by DZOs). Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StangMan90 0 #69 March 19, 2010 "Lol ever considered that they might be right (too)? Nobody was rude, they just argued a different opinion." _______________________ Thanks, I wasn't thinking anyone was being rude, especially since it didn't appear that anyone was getting too personal. I've worked for lawyers for over 20 years, so I know the drill about arguing one's opinion. I'm the first to admit that as a newcomer, I don't know squat about skydiving compared to those with lots of experience (like my instructors, whose face-to-face advice and recommendations take utmost priority over all others, especially over the "instructional information" shared on this website). I'm sure those who responded are all correct in one way or another. But just because I'm new doesn't mean I'm stupid, it just means I have more to learn. Thanks for helping me out with that, guys. Seriously. Joesimplify Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StangMan90 0 #70 March 19, 2010 "Welcome to DZ.com, Joe, and the beginning of the end of any idealistic notions you may have had about skydivers and skydiving. Let the more cynical enjoyment of the sport begin." ________________________ Thanks, Krisanne. Hope to see you Saturday out at SkyDance. Joesimplify Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jsaxton 0 #71 March 20, 2010 Relax Joe, we all got the same (or worse) shit when we were coming up. That's just part of the sport ;) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #72 March 20, 2010 QuoteBut just because I'm new doesn't mean I'm stupid, it just means I have more to learn. I doubt that anyone thinks you are stupid. If you can get over the egos, what a skydiver with an ego, you will find that the majority of people who post are genuinely trying to be helpful. But you are right you have a lot to learn. Some will come easy and some will come with time and experience. No one knows it all and the best any of us can do is to keep learning. It is more important in skydiving then in bowling. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jsaxton 0 #73 March 20, 2010 Sparky knows what he's talking about. Skydiving is NOT for the thin skinned ;-P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StangMan90 0 #74 March 20, 2010 Quote No one knows it all and the best any of us can do is to keep learning. It is more important in skydiving then in bowling. Thanks, Sparky. Very well put. No worries. I spent 4 years on staff at an air wing command headquarters when I was in the Navy, so I'm very familiar with the "give the rookie a hard time" routine. It comes with the territory and it's all good as far as I'm concerned. BTW: I've been reluctant to put this out there, but since day-1 with skydiving I've had a fear of hearing the "bowling speech", especially since my Dad is a member of the Texas Bowling Association Hall of Fame. Truth. Joesimplify Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #75 March 20, 2010 Joe, with the dedication you've shown and the challenge you've met, ain't no one here gonna give you the bowling speech. ---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
