NWFlyer 2 #26 February 19, 2010 Quote The short answer is they don't. Of course I already knew that. I'd just like to hear what our esteemed board has to say on the topic. "There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #27 February 19, 2010 QuoteYou are missing the issue. Say a student is partway through training and has an accident. A section of the card, requiring an I, is signed off by a Coach. ... A lawyer will yank the coach, DZ and USPA (if USPA accepted a coach's sig where an I was required) into court in a heartbeat. The lawyer will yank them all in anyway. But, if you are worried about a lawyer and lawsuit... Again, no change of a BSR, but instead an asterisk on the bottom of the form for the A licence and next to the verbal quiz signoff, for an instructor... Something like: "*All sections signed by a coach are not considered complete until an instructor conducts a review of knowledge to verify satisfactory training." (The beauty of this is that conducting a review indicates that the work was done under the oversight of an instructor, but - a review does not require the instructor to accept liability for anything more than the review!) What you are telling me about a courtroom and lawyer is even worse under the current policy... A coach does the training. A coach walks over to an instructor and says, "I told this student to do rear riser turns per this item. He told me he did them at 3,500 feet. I trust him. Now you trust me and sign off for my student." The instructor will then have to tell the entire jury, "Nope, I did not train the person, or see them do the turns. I delegated that to a coach and just signed the card. I trusted the coach." The lawyer will say, "Some argue the training has to be done under the direction and oversight of an instructor per the BSRs, why Mr. Instructor, did you not give direction and oversight per the BSRs and be there every moment of the training, because I believe oversight means you have to be there? Further, my client says you did all the training because you signed off, can you PROVE a coach did any work?" "Well, Mr. Lawyer and Jury, the USPA gives me no power over coaches, they have ratings other people gave them, there are no BSRs that give me ability to regulate work, we both are independent contractors, I made no money to work for this student, so I trusted this person to do good training based upon other interactions and signed off." "Mr. Instructor, why would you sign?" "Mr. Lawyer, I signed because the USPA has this coach rating, coaches do the training for students, but they have no power to sign, so someone has to sign. Ya, I know the coach does good work, so I had to trust them on this one." "Mr. Instructor, what did the person you trust tell my client on the aircraft on the way to altitude?" "Mr. Lawyer, I don't know, I watched him train many students, but I was not in the plane, I was not in the classroom, I just asked the coach's student a few questions that he answered correctly, I had no clue the coach recommended on the plane ride up that the student do the unsafe act you claim. I asked enough questions, so I thought, but I had to trust them. The only other solution is that the USPA get rid of the coach rating and make the instructor do every single jump/training item personally!" "Mr. Instructor, I think that is a great idea, and my view of the USPA's policy is that you should have been there every moment to provide oversight, you were not there on the plane when the coach told my client to front riser turn into the ground, now pay! In conclusion - what you arguing, in my opinion, does not remove the possibility of courtrooms and lawyers, it simply removes the possibility the Coach will be part of the suit and moves 100% of the liability to the instructor who did not actually do any of the training. QuoteI do find it strange or funny that some people are clamoring for augmented entry skill levels and renewal requirements and then also clamor for 'letting a coach sign off' stuff that requires an Instructor. You will never find me argue that a Coach should require more skills. I have watched some 100 jump wonders give great coaching, and it is their willingness to jump with students that gives students someone to enjoy skydiving with. I am all about safety, thus when I review incident reports, I look for the cause of problems... It's not coaches. The solution is canopy coaching and engaging the student to learn well past the first 25 jumps.... Not many incidents, if any, are due to a "broken system", so I don't want to fix it! So in recap... Make the coach sign what they taught. Make an instructor verify that it was taught. This is the spirit of the BSRs, and provides the least liability in a courtroom. I would love to see the BSRs modified to address this, but that takes an act of congress... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alabamaskydiver 0 #28 February 19, 2010 In light of the recent situations in Nashville and Murfreesboro, Tn that I'm sure we have all heard or read about, I would like to offer a suggestion that the BOD to suspend for no less that 6 months the BSR violators and vandals who slighted our sport by getting the word "skydive" drawn into another court room. http://thatismessedup.com/2009/11/16/guerrilla-marketing-for-area-sky-diving-company-crosses-the-line/ http://www.newschannel5.com/Global/story.asp?S=11657463 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 34 #29 February 19, 2010 Quote In light of the recent situations in Nashville and Murfreesboro, Tn that I'm sure we have all heard or read about, I would like to offer a suggestion that the BOD to suspend for no less that 6 months the BSR violators and vandals who slighted our sport by getting the word "skydive" drawn into another court room. http://thatismessedup.com/2009/11/16/guerrilla-marketing-for-area-sky-diving-company-crosses-the-line/ http://www.newschannel5.com/Global/story.asp?S=11657463 Getting USPA back into the fray with Skyride? Don't bet on it. Those links are old news. Let the cities handle them. Oh, and here's one example of the horse-shit they spew: "We have them for free here at the center, and whatever they do with them - we don't know," said Kayla Maxwell with Adventure Skydiving of Tenn." Yeah riiiiiiight.... "Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
redramdriver 0 #30 February 19, 2010 AMEN!!!So, you bring your beer? Its 5 o'clock somewhere POPS #9344 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slotperfect 7 #31 February 22, 2010 http://www.uspa.org/NewsEvents/News/tabid/59/Default.aspx#12659Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyhi 24 #32 February 22, 2010 QuoteThe board approved an effort to solicit proxies from the general membership to amend the USPA by-laws to allow online voting for the 2010 election of the 2011-2012 USPA Board of Directors. Probability of success?Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 8 #33 February 22, 2010 Quotehttp://www.uspa.org/NewsEvents/News/tabid/59/Default.aspx#12659 So no change on affi/coach ratings requirements?"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 5 #34 February 22, 2010 QuoteQuotehttp://www.uspa.org/NewsEvents/News/tabid/59/Default.aspx#12659 So no change on affi/coach ratings requirements? Yes If you have less than 500 jumps, then you now must hold the coach rating (and do the required number of coach jumps) for a minimum of one year prior to challenging the AFF course. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #35 February 22, 2010 QuoteNo changes required to the BSRs... This is not about the FJC, so lets just read section 1 (general): Quote1. General [E] a. All student training programs must be conducted under the direction and oversight of an appropriately rated USPA Instructor until the student is issued a USPA A license. QuoteThat does NOT conflict with a coach working directly with a student, with a coach signing a card, then presenting the completed card and the student to an instructor for the instructor to do the final checkoff dive and verbal quiz.... It does conflict. As shown above, Coaches can only sign limited line itmes and that's only on the 4-page card. QuoteAs long as the bottom and final signature is done by an instructor, and the checkoff dive and verbal quiz is done by an instructor, the rest can be done and signed off by a coach and still follow the spirit of the rules as written. Not correct. See above. Quote"Direction and Oversight" does not mean "there every moment", nor does it mean, "has to review every detail." Oversight can be, "when I was packing I paid attention to what the coach was telling this student, and he was doing a good job, so I have learned to trust this coach's signature after seeing them teach a few students" - or the opposite - "I don't know this person, lets re-quiz this topic before I sign off for the A and do any re-training necessary." Opinions and interpretation. Others may see it differently. That's the problem with so much of the BSRs and indeed much of the info in the SIM....open to interpretation. QuoteIt's the instructor's job to not sign the A licence until they verified the coaches did their job properly. WooooHooo! Absolutely!My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerpaul 1 #36 February 22, 2010 Quote As long as the bottom and final signature is done by an instructor, and the checkoff dive and verbal quiz is done by an instructor, the rest can be done and signed off by a coach and still follow the spirit of the rules as written. USPA has made it quite clear, and published such in the USPA Professional newsletter, that the only things that can have a Coach sign are the items on the 4 page proficiency card that carry the notation "C/I" next to the line. The "C/I" means that the item can be signed by either a Coach or an Instructor. None of the lines on the 2 page proficiency card have the "C/I" notation, so it is not allowable for a Coach to sign anything on that card. USPA can choose to reject the license application if they find that the signatures do not meet their requirements. It used to be informally the way you said, but more recently, USPA has made statements saying this sort of thing might result in rejection of the license application. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tdog 0 #37 February 23, 2010 Quote It used to be informally the way you said, but more recently, USPA has made statements saying this sort of thing might result in rejection of the license application. It HAS resulted in license applications rejected... My students have had their apps rejected. But I don't want to sign off for a jump I did not do as I don't want the liability for someone else's work... Thus this rule has put coaches out of business as far as I am concerned. Sucks, because I think coaches do a damn fine job and I want them to be able to take accountability for their work and actions so I know who to congratulate when a student does a real good job. Right now, someone who didn't even jump with the student takes the glory (or liability). So, even if the BSRs need to be changed - someone at the USPA - if you are paying attention - do it! Please! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #38 February 23, 2010 You don't want to take responsibility, yet you'll sign off the whole card? Part of the responsibility of being an instructor, is to help create new instructors. A Coach is an apprentice to an instructor(s).---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tdog 0 #39 February 23, 2010 QuoteYou don't want to take responsibility, yet you'll sign off the whole card? Part of the responsibility of being an instructor, is to help create new instructors. A Coach is an apprentice to an instructor(s). If you go back and read every post I wrote, hopefully you will understand what I was trying to say... I want coaches to take responsiblity, so when I sign the bottom of the card, I know exactly who trained, so I can take responsiblity... Also, I want coaches to sign what they taught, so when a student does not answer a question correctly in my final review, I can see if the coach who did the work needs help understanding the subject better. A long, long, long time ago - about 9 months ago, SOP at my home DZ was for a coach to sign everything they worked on, except for the A checkout dive, verbal quiz, and bottom line of the card. We thought that was accpetable. The USPA called us on it and rejected every student ap after one day... So, I have seen it both ways now... Back in "the good old days", students and coaches worked better together, students went to coaches for help (now they find an instructor to remove the middleman), etc. Here's one... I was delivered a complete A licence card with every block dated and jump numbers and asked to sign each one... I asked, "why did they not sign it?" This student worked painstakenly to find coaches to help him, got his card completed (ground school items), but the coaches and student failed to get an instructor to sign that day because "everyone was so busy jumping we thought we would do it at the end of the day, then I had to leave early because I got a phone call from work..." Why not just have the coach sign off so the instructor can then review and see if the coach did a good job, or call the coach in for some retrianing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tdog 0 #40 February 23, 2010 QuoteYou don't want to take responsibility, yet you'll sign off the whole card? Part of the responsibility of being an instructor, is to help create new instructors. A Coach is an apprentice to an instructor(s). Another comment: coaches (at least the ones I have evaluated and when I was evaluated) should have the proven skillset to teach the items on the A card. They should be able to do each item and sign off (or most) - or they should not have the rating. I agree they are an apprentice/student - but they learn by doing. They need some freedom to experiment, try new things, and see what works so when they try to get an aff rating the kinks are worked out with the less important details with the topics coaches work on. A coach, when working at a dz, will be seen by their peers and instructors. Instructors will call them on their shortcomings. I am not saying removing instructors from the loop, but instead saying, the way to know who has tons of experience for higher ratings, and the way to know who is doing a good job, is for the coach to take accountability for their work. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Para5-0 0 #41 February 23, 2010 I guess I am in the minority here, but I like a coach to come to me and sit down and explain everything that was done or taught. I then can debrief the coach a bit to help him/her out. Then I sign the card saying that I am satisfied it was done correctly. Bring me into court, as long as I dont just blindly sign cards I should be okay. The instructor signature is validating that in my opinion the coach conducted the ground/air properly, based on review. You can also use it as a good opportunity to orally quiz or test the student for comprehension. A coach should have instructor oversight, otherwise they would be an instructor. THeir has to be a chain of command so to speak to evaluate and help the coach learn to be a good instructor. If the coach just signs, you will or could loose some valuable debriefing for the coach. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Fast 0 #42 February 23, 2010 QuoteI guess I am in the minority here, but I like a coach to come to me and sit down and explain everything that was done or taught. I then can debrief the coach a bit to help him/her out. Then I sign the card saying that I am satisfied it was done correctly. Bring me into court, as long as I dont just blindly sign cards I should be okay. The instructor signature is validating that in my opinion the coach conducted the ground/air properly, based on review. You can also use it as a good opportunity to orally quiz or test the student for comprehension. A coach should have instructor oversight, otherwise they would be an instructor. THeir has to be a chain of command so to speak to evaluate and help the coach learn to be a good instructor. If the coach just signs, you will or could loose some valuable debriefing for the coach. Yeah I agree with this sentiment quite a bit.~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pilotdave 0 #43 February 23, 2010 QuoteUSPA has made it quite clear, and published such in the USPA Professional newsletter, that the only things that can have a Coach sign are the items on the 4 page proficiency card that carry the notation "C/I" next to the line. The "C/I" means that the item can be signed by either a Coach or an Instructor. Just heard this morning that "C" will be added to almost every line of the card for Cat F-H. Canopy training will still be "I" only, as well as category quizes from what I could tell. According to my regional director, the change is effective immediately. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerpaul 1 #44 February 23, 2010 Quote Just heard this morning that "C" will be added to almost every line of the card for Cat F-H. Canopy training will still be "I" only, as well as category quizes from what I could tell. According to my regional director, the change is effective immediately. Dave That's good news! Any word on how this new attitude might be reflected in the 2 page proficiency cards? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tdog 0 #45 February 24, 2010 QuoteI guess I am in the minority here, but I like a coach to come to me and sit down and explain everything that was done or taught. I then can debrief the coach a bit to help him/her out. That's great too... But, the coaches I have evaluated as a coach course evaluator would not have passed if I did not trust them to teach the bare minimum A licence skill set (items to be signed on the card) accurately and effectively and to get help when needed... Sure, we all can dial in our teaching skills better, but that should not impact safety or core knowledge a lot as the A licence candidate works thru the system. I know the 3 out of 4 coach course directors I have worked under expected the same out of their students, and the 4th is no longer in the business due to his "suckness". Honestly, if we can't trust our coaches to do good work without assistance, then they should not be working with students at all... That is not to say instructors cannot help them be better coaches, but having every item on the card signed by an instructor instead of a coach says to me someone thinks a coach is not qualified to teach the skillset at all. This is not to say any one instructor/coach should teach in a vacuum and not learn from their peers... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #46 February 24, 2010 "Honestly, if we can't trust our Coach Course IE's to teach to the standards as set forth by the USPA, then they should not be working with candidates at all..." Just another take on it.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites stratostar 5 #47 February 24, 2010 yea the same as AFF I/E's who had out "conditional aff ratings" based on bra size and blow job ability.you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites howardwhite 6 #48 February 24, 2010 QuoteJust heard this morning that "C" will be added to almost every line of the card for Cat F-H. Canopy training will still be "I" only, as well as category quizzes from what I could tell. According to my regional director, the change is effective immediately. Well, sort of. HQ is working on the changes and they have to be published. And, unless I'm mistaken, coaches will be able to sign off category quizzes. HW (who had some part in making this happen.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pilotdave 0 #49 February 24, 2010 I only added category quizzes because that was not marked up on the proposed card. I was assuming nobody asked for that change. But anyway, nice job to those that helped put this together. I fully believe that if we give coaches the ability to teach, jump with, and critique students, they should have the ability to sign the card. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 2 #50 February 24, 2010 QuoteHonestly, if we can't trust our coaches to do good work without assistance, then they should not be working with students at all... That is not to say instructors cannot help them be better coaches, but having every item on the card signed by an instructor instead of a coach says to me someone thinks a coach is not qualified to teach the skillset at all. Then change the regulations to not require a coach to be deemed to be working under the supervision of an instructor (which I think would be risky from a legal/liability standpoint). But so long as that requirement is in place, it needs to be honored in deed, not just in word; and thus I respectfully disagree with you, and I strongly agree with Para-5's post #41. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
riggerpaul 1 #36 February 22, 2010 Quote As long as the bottom and final signature is done by an instructor, and the checkoff dive and verbal quiz is done by an instructor, the rest can be done and signed off by a coach and still follow the spirit of the rules as written. USPA has made it quite clear, and published such in the USPA Professional newsletter, that the only things that can have a Coach sign are the items on the 4 page proficiency card that carry the notation "C/I" next to the line. The "C/I" means that the item can be signed by either a Coach or an Instructor. None of the lines on the 2 page proficiency card have the "C/I" notation, so it is not allowable for a Coach to sign anything on that card. USPA can choose to reject the license application if they find that the signatures do not meet their requirements. It used to be informally the way you said, but more recently, USPA has made statements saying this sort of thing might result in rejection of the license application. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #37 February 23, 2010 Quote It used to be informally the way you said, but more recently, USPA has made statements saying this sort of thing might result in rejection of the license application. It HAS resulted in license applications rejected... My students have had their apps rejected. But I don't want to sign off for a jump I did not do as I don't want the liability for someone else's work... Thus this rule has put coaches out of business as far as I am concerned. Sucks, because I think coaches do a damn fine job and I want them to be able to take accountability for their work and actions so I know who to congratulate when a student does a real good job. Right now, someone who didn't even jump with the student takes the glory (or liability). So, even if the BSRs need to be changed - someone at the USPA - if you are paying attention - do it! Please! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #38 February 23, 2010 You don't want to take responsibility, yet you'll sign off the whole card? Part of the responsibility of being an instructor, is to help create new instructors. A Coach is an apprentice to an instructor(s).---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #39 February 23, 2010 QuoteYou don't want to take responsibility, yet you'll sign off the whole card? Part of the responsibility of being an instructor, is to help create new instructors. A Coach is an apprentice to an instructor(s). If you go back and read every post I wrote, hopefully you will understand what I was trying to say... I want coaches to take responsiblity, so when I sign the bottom of the card, I know exactly who trained, so I can take responsiblity... Also, I want coaches to sign what they taught, so when a student does not answer a question correctly in my final review, I can see if the coach who did the work needs help understanding the subject better. A long, long, long time ago - about 9 months ago, SOP at my home DZ was for a coach to sign everything they worked on, except for the A checkout dive, verbal quiz, and bottom line of the card. We thought that was accpetable. The USPA called us on it and rejected every student ap after one day... So, I have seen it both ways now... Back in "the good old days", students and coaches worked better together, students went to coaches for help (now they find an instructor to remove the middleman), etc. Here's one... I was delivered a complete A licence card with every block dated and jump numbers and asked to sign each one... I asked, "why did they not sign it?" This student worked painstakenly to find coaches to help him, got his card completed (ground school items), but the coaches and student failed to get an instructor to sign that day because "everyone was so busy jumping we thought we would do it at the end of the day, then I had to leave early because I got a phone call from work..." Why not just have the coach sign off so the instructor can then review and see if the coach did a good job, or call the coach in for some retrianing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #40 February 23, 2010 QuoteYou don't want to take responsibility, yet you'll sign off the whole card? Part of the responsibility of being an instructor, is to help create new instructors. A Coach is an apprentice to an instructor(s). Another comment: coaches (at least the ones I have evaluated and when I was evaluated) should have the proven skillset to teach the items on the A card. They should be able to do each item and sign off (or most) - or they should not have the rating. I agree they are an apprentice/student - but they learn by doing. They need some freedom to experiment, try new things, and see what works so when they try to get an aff rating the kinks are worked out with the less important details with the topics coaches work on. A coach, when working at a dz, will be seen by their peers and instructors. Instructors will call them on their shortcomings. I am not saying removing instructors from the loop, but instead saying, the way to know who has tons of experience for higher ratings, and the way to know who is doing a good job, is for the coach to take accountability for their work. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Para5-0 0 #41 February 23, 2010 I guess I am in the minority here, but I like a coach to come to me and sit down and explain everything that was done or taught. I then can debrief the coach a bit to help him/her out. Then I sign the card saying that I am satisfied it was done correctly. Bring me into court, as long as I dont just blindly sign cards I should be okay. The instructor signature is validating that in my opinion the coach conducted the ground/air properly, based on review. You can also use it as a good opportunity to orally quiz or test the student for comprehension. A coach should have instructor oversight, otherwise they would be an instructor. THeir has to be a chain of command so to speak to evaluate and help the coach learn to be a good instructor. If the coach just signs, you will or could loose some valuable debriefing for the coach. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fast 0 #42 February 23, 2010 QuoteI guess I am in the minority here, but I like a coach to come to me and sit down and explain everything that was done or taught. I then can debrief the coach a bit to help him/her out. Then I sign the card saying that I am satisfied it was done correctly. Bring me into court, as long as I dont just blindly sign cards I should be okay. The instructor signature is validating that in my opinion the coach conducted the ground/air properly, based on review. You can also use it as a good opportunity to orally quiz or test the student for comprehension. A coach should have instructor oversight, otherwise they would be an instructor. THeir has to be a chain of command so to speak to evaluate and help the coach learn to be a good instructor. If the coach just signs, you will or could loose some valuable debriefing for the coach. Yeah I agree with this sentiment quite a bit.~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #43 February 23, 2010 QuoteUSPA has made it quite clear, and published such in the USPA Professional newsletter, that the only things that can have a Coach sign are the items on the 4 page proficiency card that carry the notation "C/I" next to the line. The "C/I" means that the item can be signed by either a Coach or an Instructor. Just heard this morning that "C" will be added to almost every line of the card for Cat F-H. Canopy training will still be "I" only, as well as category quizes from what I could tell. According to my regional director, the change is effective immediately. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerpaul 1 #44 February 23, 2010 Quote Just heard this morning that "C" will be added to almost every line of the card for Cat F-H. Canopy training will still be "I" only, as well as category quizes from what I could tell. According to my regional director, the change is effective immediately. Dave That's good news! Any word on how this new attitude might be reflected in the 2 page proficiency cards? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #45 February 24, 2010 QuoteI guess I am in the minority here, but I like a coach to come to me and sit down and explain everything that was done or taught. I then can debrief the coach a bit to help him/her out. That's great too... But, the coaches I have evaluated as a coach course evaluator would not have passed if I did not trust them to teach the bare minimum A licence skill set (items to be signed on the card) accurately and effectively and to get help when needed... Sure, we all can dial in our teaching skills better, but that should not impact safety or core knowledge a lot as the A licence candidate works thru the system. I know the 3 out of 4 coach course directors I have worked under expected the same out of their students, and the 4th is no longer in the business due to his "suckness". Honestly, if we can't trust our coaches to do good work without assistance, then they should not be working with students at all... That is not to say instructors cannot help them be better coaches, but having every item on the card signed by an instructor instead of a coach says to me someone thinks a coach is not qualified to teach the skillset at all. This is not to say any one instructor/coach should teach in a vacuum and not learn from their peers... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #46 February 24, 2010 "Honestly, if we can't trust our Coach Course IE's to teach to the standards as set forth by the USPA, then they should not be working with candidates at all..." Just another take on it.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #47 February 24, 2010 yea the same as AFF I/E's who had out "conditional aff ratings" based on bra size and blow job ability.you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
howardwhite 6 #48 February 24, 2010 QuoteJust heard this morning that "C" will be added to almost every line of the card for Cat F-H. Canopy training will still be "I" only, as well as category quizzes from what I could tell. According to my regional director, the change is effective immediately. Well, sort of. HQ is working on the changes and they have to be published. And, unless I'm mistaken, coaches will be able to sign off category quizzes. HW (who had some part in making this happen.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #49 February 24, 2010 I only added category quizzes because that was not marked up on the proposed card. I was assuming nobody asked for that change. But anyway, nice job to those that helped put this together. I fully believe that if we give coaches the ability to teach, jump with, and critique students, they should have the ability to sign the card. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #50 February 24, 2010 QuoteHonestly, if we can't trust our coaches to do good work without assistance, then they should not be working with students at all... That is not to say instructors cannot help them be better coaches, but having every item on the card signed by an instructor instead of a coach says to me someone thinks a coach is not qualified to teach the skillset at all. Then change the regulations to not require a coach to be deemed to be working under the supervision of an instructor (which I think would be risky from a legal/liability standpoint). But so long as that requirement is in place, it needs to be honored in deed, not just in word; and thus I respectfully disagree with you, and I strongly agree with Para-5's post #41. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
