would you NOT visit a dz because they have restricted turns to 90 degree's or less

[billvon 3,009]

>For this to happen, both sides will need to give a little.

Agreed. Separate landing areas is a good compromise.

[squirrel 0]

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I'm a bit disappointed that I have to spell it out to you.

1. Swoopers are smarter than non-swoopers.

2. Swoopers are always right.

3. If you disagree with a swooper, you are wrong.

4. If you agree with a swooper, you are still wrong because you are not a swooper.

5. Swoopers are the elite of the skydiving world.

6. Swoopers are the downtrodden of the skydiving world.

7. If you are not a swooper, you are hell-bent on banning their fun.

8. If you are not a swooper, you cannot possibly understand...*anything*. Why? Because you're not a swooper.

9. If a swooper kills an innocent jumper via canopy collision, it is at worst an "error in judgement". Most likely the slow canopy did something stupid to get in the swooper's way.

10. You're not worthy of being in the presence of a swooper; neither is God.

11. God wishes he were a swooper, but he's just not that good.

12. God doesn't go anywhere near churches on Sunday. He goes to the DZ to worship the swoopers.

13. Any swooper can kick Chuck Norris' ass.

Understand now? If not, then ask any swooper

Walt

this post gets everyone absolutely nowhere, fast.

nobody likes a hater.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Yes!

But it was funny and we could use some levity in this over-heated debate.

I have seen so many swwoper Vs non swooper threads, without a real solution so far, its getting tiresome. however, when I read this list, I laughed, then, I remembered a conversation I had with a swooper. I was on jump 60 or so, on a load with a swooping group haveing a small compitition. Being a new jumper, and a fan of aircraft (i have piloted balloons, and now fly ultralights) I am ALWAYS looking, feeling, sensing the weather. On this day, the winds were gusting, up an down, very unstable, from 5 to 20 to 0 to 10 and such.

We loaded up. I started small talk with the swoopers, very fascinated with their skills and flying ability. However, I commented that winds were shifting, and was it ok to swoop in such conditions? His response was this...and I quote...."What the fuck do you know! Your NOT a swooper, your flying that fat ass spectre 170" and the other swoopers grinned. OK, I said to myself, and calmly said, "Well, I do know winds, and it looks unstable...but, good luck." And at that point, I shut up...after all, I...was a newbie, and like he said, what the fuck did I know. Well, I think I was right, or in the middle of a terrible and tragic coincidence, for on that jump, he hooked it too low, and slammed in...and died later.

Was it the wind, was it the low turn, was it both...was it his attitude? I will never know. I really love watching swoopers do their thing. Hell, I fly 4 feet off the deck in my ultralight, do low turns, and play low...but I observe the weather, the wind, and never ever do any turns when flying in close proximity to my fellow flyers.

My point here is...his response. A brick wall, a "fuck you" attitude,... a refusal to take in more information, and blindly reject a possible helping hand. I see this same attitude today in the swooper vs non swooper arguements...I sense a "cold war," no punches thrown, but the fight is there. So what will I do? Simply stay clear, land off or in the student area...away from ..... everyone. So when you see me and my wife, doing a 15 minute walk back, sweating from the hike...dont worry about us...we are just staying out of this little "cold war"

________________________________
Where is Darwin when you need him?

[ROK 0]

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>For this to happen, both sides will need to give a little.

Agreed. Separate landing areas is a good compromise.

Bill,

This seems to be an answer to the issue, but what are the logistics of this taking place? How far apart do the landing areas need to be taking into account differing jump runs, and constantly changing wind conditions? Economically, will it be appealing to DZO's? What about the DZ's that do not have the real estate for proper LZ separation?

I have not followed every post written with regard to the debate, but it would seem that if this is the only option, the swoopers will come out on the short end of the stick.

I still believe that we have enough intelligence in the community to come up with a plan that involves timing and proper separation. We do it with flat flyers, free flyers, and wing-suit flyers now. Taking the mechanics behind swooping into consideration, can we not do the same for them?

[billvon 3,009]

> but what are the logistics of this taking place? How far apart do the
>landing areas need to be taking into account differing jump runs, and
>constantly changing wind conditions?

That's going to depend on the DZ. At Otay, the wind only comes from one direction so it's easy, and the barrier is a mere line of flags. At Elsinore, there's a lot of separation (they're across the runway from each other, and the runway is a no-fly zone.)

>Economically, will it be appealing to DZO's?

Nope. Which is why we need a BSR, so that economics does not trump safety.

>What about the DZ's that do not have the real estate for proper LZ separation?

Then separate em by time. Have the landing area be either swoop patterns or standard patterns - just not both at the same time.

>I have not followed every post written with regard to the debate, but it
>would seem that if this is the only option, the swoopers will come out
>on the short end of the stick.

When a swooper collides with a standard pattern flyer and kills both, BOTH come out on the short end of the stick. The answer is not to penalize either sort of jumper, but rather set up areas where they can both do their thing safely.

[rhys 0]

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His response was this...and I quote...."What the fuck do you know! Your NOT a swooper, your flying that fat ass spectre 170" and the other swoopers grinned.

That is a shit house attitude and I know you don't think all swoopers think like that. I do have to mention however you get fucknuckle arrogant cu*ts like that in any discipline.

The worst are the 10000+ jump drouge whores that don't even own their own rig anymore but continue to tell everyone how to skydive.

That fella got what came to him in the end. That is survival of the fittest at its best.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[squirrel 0]

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Quote

His response was this...and I quote...."What the fuck do you know! Your NOT a swooper, your flying that fat ass spectre 170" and the other swoopers grinned.

That is a shit house attitude and I know you don't think all swoopers think like that. I do have to mention however you get fucknuckle arrogant cu*ts like that in any discipline.

The worst are the 10000+ jump drouge whores that don't even own their own rig anymore but continue to tell everyone how to skydive.

That fella got what came to him in the end. That is survival of the fittest at its best.

yes, people like that are everywhere(even on both sides of this discussion)...again, that is why when we jump, my wife and i land out and clear of ALL other traffic. i dont think there is anywhere near enough canopy training in AFF. after all we are all "pilots" in command of parachute...i feel that many people if not all skydivers need basic and more training on how to approach a landing area. there is reason why this many airplanes dont collide....training, and respect.

________________________________
Where is Darwin when you need him?

[squirrel 0]

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At Elsinore, there's a lot of separation (they're across the runway from each other, and the runway is a no-fly zone.)

that is one reason why we jump at elsinore.

________________________________
Where is Darwin when you need him?

[AFFI 0]

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That fella got what came to him in the end.

What "fella" is that???

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Quote

We loaded up. I started small talk with the swoopers, very fascinated with their skills and flying ability. However, I commented that winds were shifting, and was it ok to swoop in such conditions? His response was this...and I quote...."What the fuck do you know! Your NOT a swooper, your flying that fat ass spectre 170" and the other swoopers grinned. OK, I said to myself, and calmly said, "Well, I do know winds, and it looks unstable...but, good luck."

That is rather unfortunate that you received that sort of response from my competitive swooping peers. Not being there, not knowing who said what, I would like to refrain from passing too much judgement on them or yourself. What I am about to say doesn't excuse their potential rude behavior but it's more a case of helping you educate yourself a little more about our mindsets during a competition, the canopies we fly, how we fly them and how our progressions got us to this point.

If this group of competitors (sounds like they could have been So-Cal CPCers based on your profile ... maybe even PSTers) are likely very seasoned canopy pilots and hopefully they analyzed the WX conditions before they set foot on the airplane and made their decisions then as to whether or not they would jump. My competitive swooping peers, we know our canopies. Our x-braced canopies are nothing like a Spectre. Our wings are rigid and we have the ability to cut through turbulence in a much more efficient manner than something like a Spectre would experience. We fly in all sorts of different winds and we actually prefer to land downwind and unless it is a zone accuracy round, we don't like landing into the wind. Is what we're doing safe? Hell no ... it is a calculated risk. But when I'm loading the airplane during a competition jump, I have my game face on. Some guys are totally focused and some guys as relaxed and loose. But we know what we are doing and we know what we are getting into. The last thing I want to hear is someone on the airplane flying a much less efficient wing telling me that they don't think the WX conditions are safe when you yourself are about to jump as well. Contrary to what you may think, we have set WX limits for the specific disciplines we are doing during a comp. If the winds exceed these limits, the round is suspended. If not, it's game time. And to have someone tell us that they think we are making a mistake (when they themselves are planning on jumping) is likely going to result in us saying (either to ourselves or possibly out load) WTF is this guy yapping about? Doesn't he know that I've already analyzed the conditions and have come up with a plan before I even stepped on the airplane? There are many different personalities in the competitive swooping circuits. I can totally see someone like TJ telling you to your face "STFUYDA" and then someone like Stu saying the exact same thing, only to himself. All the while someone like Ian will be polite and diplomatic and he'll tell you kind of what I'm telling you now (all the while he's thinking the same thing that TJ and Stu were thinking). Three different types of personalities thinking the same thing, but expressing themselves differently.

You may not understand this, but you have to be a competitive swooper to understand what's going through our minds when we're on the airplane. If I knew you, I might talk to you about the WX and tell you what I had already analyzed and exactly what my plan for the jump was ... and if you were a face on the plane I didn't recognize ... who knows I might just tell you the same thing these guys said. We are a competitive group ... we have to be. It's the only way to perform up there. Sorry dude but you have to walk a mile in our shoes before you understand our mindset.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[wrightskyguy 1]

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We are a competitive group ... we have to be. It's the only way to perform up there. Sorry dude but you have to walk a mile in our shoes before you understand our mindset.


***What a long winded crock of shit. Arrogance is arrogance. I've been around awhile and know alot of swoopers, competitive and otherwise. Some are professionals and some are just fat guys with little canopies, none of them however would get away with an attitude like that at my DZ. Being a "competitive swooper" is not a license to be a shithead, although some people seem to think so.

John Wright

World's most beloved skydiver

• Quote

[squirrel 0]

first of all, i dont take any offense to what your saying. i have the same attitude when people tell me that my ultralight trike..."is a kite, and your stupid to fly it." When I am skiming 3 feet above the ground, i dont need doubt in my mind, I know what my aircraft can do, and I know what I can do. But...I absolutely know when to call it a day.

However. That "game face" blinded this guy. I was right (unfortunately), He...was wrong. And the compitition was like 5 guys, not a pro or even real organized event. I am not an idiot regarding your high performance canpoies. I have jump at over 25 DZs, and interacted with all types, some of the great ones at Perris, Eloy, Chris Martin in Tn, Roger up in Chicago, the teams in Deland...hell, I got married in the skyvan. Even jumped that DZ down in atlanta with the F-uped uphill landing. I have respect for all skydivers, and I have flown airplanes, parachutes, and hot air balloons. I understand aerodynamics. So, yes, I understood the conditions that day...and I now even understand them better.. in my OPINION (just mine) he was wrong.

What I was trying to convey with my post is, that the skydiving community has a problem with different flying styles, trying to land in the same place. And it is the arogance and lack of compromise of both sides that will not let this problem be solved. Game face or not, compitition or not...you must always be able to know when to say when.

Again, I hear you for what you are saying. But both sides had better figure this out, our more will die. And in the meantime, I will land my old realable fast ass spectre far far away.

________________________________
Where is Darwin when you need him?

[DJL 235]

I wouldn't abstain from visiting but I'd take it into account when deciding if I want to make it my home DZ. Your "non-bashing" example has so much else going for it that it probably wouldn't matter.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[AFFI 0]

Quote

in my OPINION (just mine) he was wrong.

This really was a good and valid post.

Not only were the conditions not the best for a swoop competition, but his attitude did not exemplify what skydiving is supposed to be all about.

Cockiness is not the best attitude for learning, others, although not into the “advanced” discipline you are into may have other experience that applies.

To me, we are all in the same boat, we are skydivers and it seems that we have always been willing to listen to the voice of reason of other experienced skydivers, but the swoopers seem to have an attitude that they are above the ideas and input of others that are not themselves – “swoopers”.
I think that is what Walt’s comical post was alluding too. Swoopers seem to believe that they are godly levels above “skygods”.

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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What a long winded crock of shit.

Are you going to sit there and listen to someone who's planning on jumping themselves who's flying a far less efficient wing who you know damn well will be effected by the weather way more than you will (assuming you jump a x-braced canopy) all the while telling you that you that they feel you shouldn't be jumping because they feel the WX has exceeded your limits when they don't even have the slightest idea what your limits are? Yes there are arrogant people in this sport. Tell me something I didn't know already. A few of the best canopy pilots in the world have their arrogant streaks. But there is also no shortage of hypocrites and while you may think I'm some arrogant full of shit dude, I see yourself being a hypocrite right here right now. Cause I'm pretty sure you're going to trust your own judgement and not the judgement from someone who doesn't have your experience.

I'm not going to tell you when or how to fly your canopy because I trust that you've already figured this out. So why should some competitive swoopers listen to someone who is going to be effected by the WX conditions way more than the swoopers will?

I guess it was more important for you to call someone a crock of shit than it was to read when they said there are many different types of personalities on the competitive swooping circuit. I'm out of here, I have more fun things to do this weekend that to debate this issue ... I've put my two cents into this topic and have nothing more to say. See you all next week.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[mnealtx 0]

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Are you going to sit there and listen to someone who's planning on jumping themselves who's flying a far less efficient wing who you know damn well will be effected by the weather way more than you will (assuming you jump a x-braced canopy) all the while telling you that you that they feel you shouldn't be jumping because they feel the WX has exceeded your limits when they don't even have the slightest idea what your limits are?

You don't know HIS experience, either - for all you know, the man could have a doctorate in Aerodynamics and a double-dozen patents on airfoil design, but...

"You don't swoop, so you don't know what you're talking about"

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[squirrel 0]

oh brother. well, do as you will, dont listen to others,...but.....stay the hell away from me in the air!

________________________________
Where is Darwin when you need him?

[squirrel 0]

"Cause I'm pretty sure you're going to trust your own judgement and not the judgement from someone who doesn't have your experience."

Well, we ALL make mistakes, miss things, forget to do safety checks. Just last week, watching my flight instructor taxi out, I spotted the nose cover on the leading edge of his wing was not proporlly in place. He has "more experience" than me...but I was the one who ran out and stopped him from taking off. Would this situation resulted cause an accident, most likely not, but it could have, and me....the little newbie in the ultralight sport, stood up to the instructor, the sky god with thousands of hours in the instructor seat, my superior if you will...stopped him from take off, and he, unlike you would....appreciated it. I will continue to do so, in all sports. I can take a tounge lashing any day of the week.

Arrogance...it will kill more.

________________________________
Where is Darwin when you need him?

[wrightskyguy 1]

Quote

But there is also no shortage of hypocrites and while you may think I'm some arrogant full of shit dude, I see yourself being a hypocrite right here right now. Cause I'm pretty sure you're going to trust your own judgement and not the judgement from someone who doesn't have your experience.

*** Not trusting someones judgement over my own is not the same thing as telling someone to fuck
off, but I think you know that. BTW I wasn't calling you personally a crock of shit, I was referring to the load of crap you were posting.

Have a nice weekend

John Wright

World's most beloved skydiver

• Quote

[waltappel 1]

Quote

You may not understand this, but you have to be a competitive swooper to understand what's going through our minds when we're on the airplane. If I knew you, I might talk to you about the WX and tell you what I had already analyzed and exactly what my plan for the jump was ... and if you were a face on the plane I didn't recognize ... who knows I might just tell you the same thing these guys said. We are a competitive group ... we have to be. It's the only way to perform up there. Sorry dude but you have to walk a mile in our shoes before you understand our mindset.

Ahem. I rest my case.

Oh, and one more for the list:

Swoopers don't have a God-given right to swoop--God has a swooper-given right to do whatever it is He does. Just ask any swooper.

Walt

[billvon 3,009]

> Our wings are rigid and we have the ability to cut through turbulence . . .

Now that is a very large load of shit right there.

"Hey, we're so badass, our canopies can resist downard pressure! Our lines are rigid, don't you know . . ."

>You may not understand this, but . . .

And this right here is why swooping is getting a bad reputation.

Let me reverse that for you. You won't understand this, but when a lot of people have to land safely, a standard pattern is the only way to go. If you did any 400-ways you'd understand. Until then, just listen to the people who are better canopy pilots in traffic than you are.

How well do you think swoopers will take an attitude like that?

[waltappel 1]

Quote

Let me reverse that for you. You won't understand this, but when a lot of people have to land safely, a standard pattern is the only way to go. If you did any 400-ways you'd understand. Until then, just listen to the people who are better canopy pilots in traffic than you are.

How well do you think swoopers will take an attitude like that?

Well maybe they'd listen if Danny Page told them that because he's been on loads of big ways *and* is a hot-shit swooper.

edited to add:
My bad--Danny isn't talking much these days.

Walt

[LloydDobbler 2]

Quote

Quote

We loaded up. I started small talk with the swoopers, very fascinated with their skills and flying ability. However, I commented that winds were shifting, and was it ok to swoop in such conditions? His response was this...and I quote...."What the fuck do you know! Your NOT a swooper, your flying that fat ass spectre 170" and the other swoopers grinned. OK, I said to myself, and calmly said, "Well, I do know winds, and it looks unstable...but, good luck."

...

You may not understand this, but you have to be a competitive swooper to understand what's going through our minds when we're on the airplane. If I knew you, I might talk to you about the WX and tell you what I had already analyzed and exactly what my plan for the jump was ... and if you were a face on the plane I didn't recognize ... who knows I might just tell you the same thing these guys said. We are a competitive group ... we have to be. It's the only way to perform up there. Sorry dude but you have to walk a mile in our shoes before you understand our mindset.

Here's the problem I have with this statement - from what it looks like (although memories can always be deceiving, and Squirrel's is certainly not immune from that), it seems like Squirrel posed a question. If he had said, "Dude, you shouldn't be swooping now," that's one thing. But to ask, "Is it okay to be swooping?" seems to be a request for information, more than an imperative demand.

Seems to me, whoever responds negatively (in the way Squirrel described) to a question like that is obviously overcompensating for something.

But back to the topic, howI have real issues with the "you can't understand unless you're me" response to anything. How, pray tell, are non-swoopers supposed to "understand what's going through your minds" when their attempts to learn to relate to you are met with condescension?

(note: the "you" in this isntance isn't specifically "you," Canuck...but since you've lumped your individual self into the same boat as the all-encompassing "we competitive swoopers," I'm using the second person. I think your post is very well-thought-out, in some ways...but I think you're missing the very important point that saying "you can't understand unless you're a swooper" is only going to serve one useless purpose: to alienate more non-swoopers. If I can't understand it, even when I want to better understand it (and when I'm shut down for trying to better understand you), then ultimately how can you expect me to want to keep trying to relate to you or accomodate you?).

Whether it's racial discussions or skydiving disciplines or office politics, that sort of divisiveness - the sort that shuns/mocks people for asking a question, because "you can't understand it anyway" - gets people nowhere.

Signatures are the new black.

[skinnyshrek 0]

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Quote

Let me reverse that for you. You won't understand this, but when a lot of people have to land safely, a standard pattern is the only way to go. If you did any 400-ways you'd understand. Until then, just listen to the people who are better canopy pilots in traffic than you are.

How well do you think swoopers will take an attitude like that?

Well maybe they'd listen if Danny Page told them that because he's been on loads of big ways *and* is a hot-shit swooper.

edited to add:
My bad--Danny isn't talking much these days.

Walt

I wish bob was. But it was his fault he was flying a straight in approach when Danny did his 270 in traffic. How dare bob follow the rules.

http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

[rhys 0]

Quote

What "fella" is that???

Quote

His response was this...and I quote...."What the fuck do you know! Your NOT a swooper, your flying that fat ass spectre 170" and the other swoopers grinned. OK, I said to myself, and calmly said, "Well, I do know winds, and it looks unstable...but, good luck." And at that point, I shut up...after all, I...was a newbie, and like he said, what the fuck did I know. Well, I think I was right, or in the middle of a terrible and tragic coincidence, for on that jump, he hooked it too low, and slammed in...and died later.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[hookitt 1]

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13. Any swooper can kick Chuck Norris' ass.

Not even a swooper can kick Chuck Norris' ass. I am a swooper. Don't question it.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto