Situation I never thought of until it happened

[jacketsdb23 49]

Almost had reserve ride #2 on Saturday but things worked out.

Normal exit with good visibility (clouds around). During breakoff at about 6000' tracked and hit some light industrial haze. Goggles froze up with the moisture. Dumped at 4500' (audible alarm altitude).

Immediate and hard line twists on XF2 119. A few times around and I could tell things were getting worse. Vision wasn't completely blocked I could see my risers and lines...but could not read my neptune. I also had a audible that can go off below 2000' ft with enough decent rate. I'm not sure if I was hitting that rate or not in my spinning line twist but I remember thinking that I had not yet heard it.

I took my hands off the risers and was actually quite calm and enjoying the experience but a bit upset I was going to cut away on my final jump of the day. Hands went right to my handles (without looking). when my hands came off the risers and went to my handles the line twists started to correct itself and i let it play out. I came out of it and lifted my goggles and looked at my neptune and it read 2100'.

I know i was listening for the audible and felt my "body clock" was right on. I never expected not to be able to read my neptune. Its a good reason to double up with a audible altimeter as well. Its great to have a hard deck but it really only helps if know exactly where you are. Just something to think about in case you've never thought about what would happen in an emergency situation and not being able to read your altimeter. In this case I was prepared to cut away much higher than I would have normally only because I couldn't determine where I was visually. Another reason to avoid moisture on cold days.

Food for thought. Enjoy. And be safe.

Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

[JohnRich 4]

In only one year in this sport, you've accumulated 900 jumps and an instructor rating?
Wow.

[AggieDave 6]

Spinning linetwists is a serious malfunction. Especially when on a highly loaded high performance canopy. About 7 or 8 years ago I nearly spun in like that. I got out of the spinning linetwists at about 500ft and had to land in a spot that I don't think I could land in again, even now!

That was on a Heatwave loaded 1.7:1. As I've gone higher performance, it has become even more severe. It is not a low speed malfunction.

I have a one revolution rule of thumb now. If I make it a full revolution around on my back before I stop the spin, its gone.

That's my personal rule, others will have to come up with their own rules, but it is very important to remember that it is very easy to lose altitude awareness, build G-forces and get to a point where it becomes an impossible cutaway due to forces or altitude.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[jacketsdb23 49]

Good point about making a rule. My rule was always if its not fixed by 1800 i'll get rid of it. Its hard to make that decision when you can't read your altimeter.

I wanted to bring this up so others can think about it.

John - Made my first jump in '96 at 16 and started jumping "regularly" with 17 jumps in 2006. So 4 years. I suppose i could update that info.

Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

[popsjumper 2]

I'll peel the goggles off if it happens to me.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Squeak 17]

Quote

Spinning linetwists is a serious malfunction. Especially when on a highly loaded high performance canopy. About 7 or 8 years ago I nearly spun in like that. I got out of the spinning linetwists at about 500ft and had to land in a spot that I don't think I could land in again, even now!

That was on a Heatwave loaded 1.7:1. As I've gone higher performance, it has become even more severe. It is not a low speed malfunction.

I have a one revolution rule of thumb now. If I make it a full revolution around on my back before I stop the spin, its gone.

That's my personal rule, others will have to come up with their own rules, but it is very important to remember that it is very easy to lose altitude awareness, build G-forces and get to a point where it becomes an impossible cutaway due to forces or altitude.

Lets not forget that the G forces can also induce a black out,
(Not directed at AD)
Dont play with spinning mals, the more you spin the fast it gets, the fatser it gets the greater the G forces, the more likely a black out.

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

Lets not forget that the G forces can also induce a black out,
(Not directed at AD)
Dont play with spinning mals, the more you spin the fast it gets, the fatser it gets the greater the G forces, the more likely a black out.

Let's make note here for the youngsters flying tamer, more docile parachutes.

For you and your larger canopy, the violence of the "spin" will likely not be as great as the guy flying the small hot-rod.
Make no mistake though. That's not to say that you won't ever have a violent, spinning mal.

You have been taught how to handle a canopy that is turning on its own. Yes, there's a line between "turning" and "spinning". You may want to discuss this with the instructors at your DZ who know you and your canopy type. They can provide you with guidelines on what to expect and how to handle the unexpected for your canopy and skill level.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[AggieDave 6]

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Lets not forget that the G forces can also induce a black out,

The G forces can also put so much stress on the system that the 3-rings are non-functional.

We all lost a good friend a while back due to all of that. It was a special circumstance on a special jump, but the concept is the same.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

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Lets not forget that the G forces can also induce a black out,

The G forces can also put so much stress on the system that the 3-rings are non-functional.

We all lost a good friend a while back due to all of that. It was a special circumstance on a special jump, but the concept is the same.

I was under the impression that the extreme G's would make it impossible to bring your arm up to the handles before it would lock up the 3-ring.
Could be wrong on that though.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[lethargic8 0]

I was under the impression (from a variety of sources, but none from my own experience) that with a properly manufactured 3 ring set (not mini-rings), and a well maintained and configure d rig, the leverage was 200 to 1 and that this is more then sufficient even in an extremely violent line spinning malfunction.

The hard pull on cutaway handle are when there is a problem with the rig no, or am I completely off on this? If this isn't the case wouldn't the 3 ring system be made larger for more leverage?

[D22369 0]

I just have to ask, were you kicking to get out of the twists in the wrong direction?

I watched a buddy do that on his reserve and after making fun of him went up and managed to have twists and kick the wrong way while filming it. boy did I have to eat crow that day.

only thing I would have done differently is to slap the goggles off immediately

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[AggieDave 6]

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I was under the impression that the extreme G's would make it impossible to bring your arm up to the handles before it would lock up the 3-ring.

I wouldn't doubt it. I've seen pictures of cutaway cables sucked through the grommet due to extreme forces. That is more to what I was referencing, which would also render the ability to cutaway impossible with the 3-ring system.

We're talking about extremes. Really, a jumper shouldn't let a serious malfunction like spinning line twists on a loaded canopy get that far!

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Superfletch 1]

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Its hard to make that decision when you can't read your altimeter.

Shouldn't be hard at all... Go back to your AFF training... if you are NOT altitude aware, get a parachute over your head. If you are under a spinning malfunction you can wait the rest of your life listening for an audible that may never come. You know you're in a malfunction situation and you have no visible way of discerning your altitude I believe the proper course of action would have been to cutaway. Glad it worked out for you the way it did, but I think you made a mistake.

Gary "Superfletch" Fletcher
D-26145; USPA Coach, IAD/I, AFF/I
Videographer/Photographer

[mjosparky 4]

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Lets not forget that the G forces can also induce a black out,

The G forces can also put so much stress on the system that the 3-rings are non-functional.
We all lost a good friend a while back due to all of that. It was a special circumstance on a special jump, but the concept is the same.

The attached chart was put out by United Parachute Technologies. Main release systems are also tested under TSO-C23d

---

SAE AS8015 Revision B

4.1.6 Main Parachute Release: A device capable of releasing the main parachute assembly from the harness of a reserve parachute assembly is optional. If used, the main parachute assembly release shall meet the applicable functional requirements of 4.3.2.

4.3.2.5 Main Canopy Release, Actuation Force Tests: While in a suspended harness (with additional ballast as required to equal twice the maximum operating weight), a force at the main canopy release handle, or equivalent (if used), of not less than 5 lbf (22.2 N) (applied in the direction requiring the least force), nor more than 22 lbf (97.9 N) (applied in the direction requiring the greatest force under normal design operations), shall result in a positive and quick release of the main canopy on all tests. A minimum of 12 pull tests is required

---

I think there were other factors involved in the fatality you mention. G load alone would not prevent cutaway.

Sparky

I think your one revolution rule is a smart one.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[billvon 2,991]

>I was under the impression (from a variety of sources, but none from my
>own experience) that with a properly manufactured 3 ring set (not
>mini-rings), and a well maintained and configure d rig, the leverage was
>200 to 1 and that this is more then sufficient even in an extremely violent
>line spinning malfunction.

That's generally true. However:

1) 99% of experienced skydivers use mini-rings
2) most skydivers do not maintain their cutaway system well; many of the rigs we get have filthy cables
3) a hard enough opening can cause "cable suck" (from a minor kink to true suckthrough) and this makes it very, very difficult to cut away

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

So even under a 2000lb load, the mini's only take 24lbs of pull force?

That would be a 10+ G load for a jumper under 200#.
That's enough to put you out, and I don't think I could lift my arms at that G-load.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[jacketsdb23 49]

I may have been kicking the wrong way, i don't know but as soon as I stopped fighting it is started to get better. That was in the transition from hands on risers to handles and saying "aww fuck".

Superfletch - in principle I agree 100%. I believe i was aware enough knowing where I deployed and how long I'd been spinning to give it the time I did. I wasn't going to wait for the audible. I was literally ready to cutaway with the hands on my handles. I guess its hard to explain but it was a fairly accurate educated guess. Had I deployed say at 3500' i'm 100% confident it would have been a cutaway immediately. Crossfires aren't the quickest opening canopy on the market.

Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

[AggieDave 6]

I will concede to the information on the chart you posted with a single condition. That the information applies to well maintained gear and most jumpers 3-rings/risers/cables see any sort of attention only when their rigger touches it! So I would be unwilling to believe that those numbers will remain true out in the skydiving community at large.

In the fatality I referenced previously, it wasn't an equipment issue, as much as it was a jumper on a 27sq ft canopy that spun up on a specialty jump. As I remember it was generally believed that he experienced G-lock long before impact. Still a sad day and we lost one of the good guys!

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Squeak 17]

Quote

I will concede to the information on the chart you posted with a single condition. That the information applies to well maintained gear and most jumpers 3-rings/risers/cables see any sort of attention only when their rigger touches it! So I would be unwilling to believe that those numbers will remain true out in the skydiving community at large.

In the fatality I referenced previously, it wasn't an equipment issue, as much as it was a jumper on a 27sq ft canopy that spun up on a specialty jump. As I remember it was generally believed that he experienced G-lock long before impact. Still a sad day and we lost one of the good guys!

Sorry Dave "G lock" i thought it was believed that he blacked out?

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[AggieDave 6]

That was a typo on my part. G-Loc.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Squeak 17]

Quote

That was a typo on my part. G-Loc.

OK sorry mate was not aware the G-Loc also stood for G-Force induced Loss of Consciousness

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[kmills0705 0]

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Its hard to make that decision when you can't read your altimeter.

Shouldn't be hard at all... Go back to your AFF training... if you are NOT altitude aware, get a parachute over your head. If you are under a spinning malfunction you can wait the rest of your life listening for an audible that may never come. You know you're in a malfunction situation and you have no visible way of discerning your altitude I believe the proper course of action would have been to cutaway. Glad it worked out for you the way it did, but I think you made a mistake.

They teach things like that in static line training also... just sayin'

Kim Mills
USPA D21696
Tandem I, AFF I and Static Line I

[mjosparky 4]

Quote

I will concede to the information on the chart you posted with a single condition. That the information applies to well maintained gear and most jumpers 3-rings/risers/cables see any sort of attention only when their rigger touches it! So I would be unwilling to believe that those numbers will remain true out in the skydiving community at large.

In the fatality I referenced previously, it wasn't an equipment issue, as much as it was a jumper on a 27sq ft canopy that spun up on a specialty jump. As I remember it was generally believed that he experienced G-lock long before impact. Still a sad day and we lost one of the good guys!

Dave, I am familiar with the incident you are talking about. In fact I have seen part of the video that was taken of the exit. It was my opinion then and I believe latter confirmed latter that he was in G-LOC within 2 to 3 revolutions. It is not just the G load but also the speed of onset. In this case he probably generated 4 to 6 G’s in the first 360 to 540 degrees of rotation.
The chart was developed by the then RWS and I am not sure of the conditions.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Rstanley0312 1]

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So even under a 2000lb load, the mini's only take 24lbs of pull force?

That would be a 10+ G load for a jumper under 200#.
That's enough to put you out, and I don't think I could lift my arms at that G-load.

That's what I am trying to figure out..... are we reading this chart right?

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[mjosparky 4]

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So even under a 2000lb load, the mini's only take 24lbs of pull force?

That would be a 10+ G load for a jumper under 200#.
That's enough to put you out, and I don't think I could lift my arms at that G-load.

You are confusing a spin induced G load with a static load which will not cause G-LOC.

Quote

That's what I am trying to figure out..... are we reading this chart right?

What is there to figure out? The chart is the result of testing. They applied X amount of load to a riser and measured the force needed to pull the release. Don’t try to read anything into it and don’t over complicate it.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals