kuai43 7 #176 January 3, 2010 QuoteQuoteIn the real world (in many applications), those that can't do, teach. Actually, some popular slogans are crocks of shit. For the most part, that's one of them. Ditto. Typically used by someone who's never taken the time or effort to teach well, and used to put down those who have. An amazing thing I've noticed during 20 years of teaching (and I suppose doing nothing) is how many people are out there who never learned from a teacher, but amazingly enough were able to independently come to identical conclusions and understandings, derived solely by their own prodigious mental prowess. What a bunch of geniuses. Wonder why they ever bothered attending school at all.... or ever bothered with anyone teaching how to skydive.Every fight is a food fight if you're a cannibal Goodness is something to be chosen. When a man cannot choose, he ceases to be a man. - Anthony Burgess Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #177 January 3, 2010 Quote Nice rant. Sounds like an admission that they don't have any despite all the rhetoric about the importance of teaching. John just show everyone how big your dick is and be done with it already.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 5 #178 January 3, 2010 QuoteQuoteIn the real world (in many applications), those that can't do, teach. Actually, some popular slogans are crocks of shit. For the most part, that's one of them. Read again: "For the most part." Taken out of context of the field in which I work, I might agree with you. Kallend's continual assertion that those who teach skydivers to teach shouldn't be doing so simply because they have no teaching credential, it's absurdity at it's best and pompous posturing at its worst. Most skydivers were taught by individuals with no teaching credentials whatsoever. A teaching certificate would likely not have prevented this tragedy. A good teacher is able to connect and comprehend the challenges of the individuals they're teaching. Whether it's a tandem student, AFF student, or wingsuit student. A teaching certifcate doesn't at all assure that a teacher/instructor will apply the information they learned during their education process. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alberto1980 0 #179 January 3, 2010 Please read everyone, I am just quoting: In all industries, there is a fundamental trade-off between production and safety. When accidents are infrequent occurrences (as they generally are in systems such as health care where accidents can have high consequences), production goals begin to dominate over safety goals. This is partly because improvements in production are often easily measurable and rewarded by the organization, whereas improvements in safety are indicated by the absence of outcomes, which are hard to measure and reward. It is only after a bad accident or a frightening near-miss that safety becomes uppermost in the minds of those who manage an organization. The stereotypical pattern of "drift toward failure" can be seen in hindsight after nearly every accident. Managers of an organization realize that production and safety both are necessary long-term goals. Nevertheless, in the short term, line managers are forced on a daily basis to choose whether or not to cut safety corners in order to meet operational demands (e.g., should we assign 3 patients to one nurse in the SICU today because we are short-staffed or should we cancel scheduled surgeries in order to maintain a ratio of 2 patients to a nurse?). For the most part, such short-cuts bring no bad effects, and so become an habitual part of routine work practices (even though they don’t tend to be reflected in official "standing operating procedures"). As time passes, the safety margin is gradually diminished during event-free periods until an accident occurs. Acknowledgment: Parts taken directly from Reason (1997). Managing the Risks of Organizational Accidents. Ashgate Publishing Company, pp. 4-5. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #180 January 3, 2010 Quotethe course director had no teaching credentials at all, yet he was (supposedly) teaching instructional pedagogy. John, The fact that someone has earned a teaching credential of some type doesn’t automatically mean they are a good teacher. It does indicate that at one time they were a good student. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #181 January 3, 2010 QuoteKallend's continual assertion that those who teach skydivers to teach shouldn't be doing so simply because they have no teaching credential, it's absurdity at it's best and pompous posturing at its worst. Most skydivers were taught by individuals with no teaching credentials whatsoever. A teaching certificate would likely not have prevented this tragedy. A good teacher is able to connect and comprehend the challenges of the individuals they're teaching. Whether it's a tandem student, AFF student, or wingsuit student. A teaching certifcate doesn't at all assure that a teacher/instructor will apply the information they learned during their education process. I think you and others are missing Kallend's point. Think of it this way: Do you think someone can teach skydiving without ever having made at least one skydive? Most will agree, of course not. Many are clamoring for even higher jump numbers, freefall time and currency to obtain and maintain a rating. Kallend is asking why it is ok to teach pedagogical subjects without having a requisite teaching certificate. Replace some words to obtain this statement: Kallend is asking why it is ok to teach skydiving subjects without having a requisite skydiving certificate. I think that if Kallend had asked the second statement you'd all say it is not ok to teach skydiving without the proper rating. So why is it ok to teach pedagogy without a teaching certificate? That's his question and it is a logical and valid question. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #182 January 3, 2010 QuoteQuotethe course director had no teaching credentials at all, yet he was (supposedly) teaching instructional pedagogy. John, The fact that someone has earned a teaching credential of some type doesn’t automatically mean they are a good teacher. It does indicate that at one time they were a good student. Sparky That applies to anything in life. I doubt you would want someone with just a Boy Scout merit badge in first aid to perform surgery on you. Why would you want the equivalent educational qualification to teach pedagogy? (It actually takes MORE effort to get a Boy Scout merit badge than it does to pass the instructional part of the rating course).... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #183 January 3, 2010 QuoteThat applies to anything in life. I doubt you would want someone with just a Boy Scout merit badge in first aid to perform surgery on you. Why would you want the equivalent educational qualification to teach pedagogy? (It actually takes MORE effort to get a Boy Scout merit badge than it does to pass the instructional part of the rating course). What is the point? our customers 'are' trained by our GCO's. The GCO's arer tained to teach the customers the body poition for exit, freefall and landing. they also teach them to use the flotation devices. none of them ar T/M's, if they were, they would not be GCO's anymore. we usually ammend the briefing to our personal standard in the plane prior to exit."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 5 #184 January 3, 2010 Quote I think that if Kallend had asked the second statement you'd all say it is not ok to teach skydiving without the proper rating. So why is it ok to teach pedagogy without a teaching certificate? That's his question and it is a logical and valid question. . It's a valid question in the way you've framed it, however; Has there ever been a time in skydiving where I/E's have had a teaching certificate whether by intent or by chance? If not, is it appropriate to place greater expense, time, and challenges on an already very challenged industry? Do the costs (fatalities/major injuries) justify the end result that *might* improve by demanding teaching certifications of those I/E's? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #185 January 3, 2010 QuoteThat applies to anything in life. I doubt you would want someone with just a Boy Scout merit badge in first aid to perform surgery on you. Why would you want the equivalent educational qualification to teach pedagogy? (It actually takes MORE effort to get a Boy Scout merit badge than it does to pass the instructional part of the rating course). What teaching credentials did your flight Instructor(s) have? What credentials did their Instructors have? Derek V Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #186 January 3, 2010 QuoteQuoteAll this is a clear example how law is fucked up in USA. Anyone can sue anyone for anything. I wonder how a normal person can drive a car without suing everybody for his/her stupid mistakes. If I plant a screwdriver in my head, I can certainly sue the maker of such screwdriver because he didn't provide misuse of the screwdriver, based on such logic. Please law people, grow up.... Why would you expect a lawyer to understand that when his income depends on not understanding? This is why people and companies need to fight lawsuits, not settle. Sure it will cost more initially, but it also avoids precedents as the increased legal costs will be felt by both sides, so even if a suit is lost, the possible payout is less too. Ie: Lawsuit is for $200,000, suit is eventually lost, $170,000 cost to both sides in legal fees. Losing side is out $370K, but winners only get $30K or if it's a percentage split deal, the legal team may even lose money. The low payout combined with the time and energy it took to get it may deter future lawsuits. For suits won, they can countersue for damages. Legal insurance plans (such as the USPA and tons of other businesses use) should be focused on going the distance, possibly with a lawsuit win bonus versus simply settling everything. If companies/individuals truly start fighting lawsuits versus taking the quicker and initially cheaper settling option, we wouldn't have this issue. People need to stop putting a price on their beliefs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
koppel 4 #187 January 4, 2010 Quote What is the point? our customers 'are' trained by our GCO's. The GCO's arer tained to teach the customers the body poition for exit, freefall and landing. they also teach them to use the flotation devices. none of them ar T/M's just a thought... OP 6.1.4 OP 9.1.1 http://docs.apf.asn.au/index.php/OpregsI like my canopy... ...it lets me down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,523 #188 January 4, 2010 Quote What teaching credentials did your flight Instructor(s) have? What credentials did their Instructors have? Derek V A large part of the CFI training involves "learning to teach". Learning psychology, lesson plans, teaching technique. The pilot already knows how to fly the plane, he now has to learn how to teach (and fly from the right seat, which is kinda weird at first). It isn't an "official" teaching certificate, but it demonstrates some ability. Many good teachers aren't "certified". Some are naturals at it, some have learned through experience in a non-school setting. I used to teach how to run industrial machinery when I worked in a paper converting mill. I got pretty good at it over time."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #189 January 4, 2010 QuoteThat applies to anything in life. I doubt you would want someone with just a Boy Scout merit badge in first aid to perform surgery on you. Why would you want the equivalent educational qualification to teach pedagogy? (It actually takes MORE effort to get a Boy Scout merit badge than it does to pass the instructional part of the rating course). No, and I wouldn’t let someone perform surgery on me just because they are a Doctor of medicine. But I would let the Boy Scout teach a class in first aid if his knowledge of the subject was up to it. I think my statement is valid. At one time I held a limited teaching credential at the Jr. College level in the state of California. I knew my material cold and the certificate said I was a “Teacher” but I knew better. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #190 January 4, 2010 Quote A large part of the CFI training involves "learning to teach". Learning psychology, lesson plans, teaching technique. The pilot already knows how to fly the plane, he now has to learn how to teach (and fly from the right seat, which is kinda weird at first). It isn't an "official" teaching certificate, but it demonstrates some ability. Just like our program. Specifically the Coach rating, though the information is often re-addressed in later ratings.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,990 #191 January 4, 2010 >I doubt you would want someone with just a Boy Scout merit badge in >first aid to perform surgery on you. Just as I am sure you would not want a surgeon who has been trained solely by someone with only a PhD in education; you'd probably prefer a surgeon who has been trained by other surgeons (which, fortunately, is how the system works.) There is undoubtedly some benefit in learning basic teaching techniques, and such techniques are covered in the USPA coaches course even if the people teaching it do not have degrees in education. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #192 January 4, 2010 Quote It's a valid question in the way you've framed it, however; Has there ever been a time in skydiving where I/E's have had a teaching certificate whether by intent or by chance? If not, is it appropriate to place greater expense, time, and challenges on an already very challenged industry? Do the costs (fatalities/major injuries) justify the end result that *might* improve by demanding teaching certifications of those I/E's? Just cuz I can frame the question better does not mean I have a good answer to the question. At most, it only means I am a better teacher than Kallend.My answer to the question is a bit long. I'll think about it and other issues for a day or two and get back to you. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnDeere 0 #193 January 4, 2010 Quote Quote Nice rant. Sounds like an admission that they don't have any despite all the rhetoric about the importance of teaching. John just show everyone how big your dick is and be done with it already. +1 Thanks for that!Nothing opens like a Deere! You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #194 January 4, 2010 QuoteQuoteThat applies to anything in life. I doubt you would want someone with just a Boy Scout merit badge in first aid to perform surgery on you. Why would you want the equivalent educational qualification to teach pedagogy? (It actually takes MORE effort to get a Boy Scout merit badge than it does to pass the instructional part of the rating course). What teaching credentials did your flight Instructor(s) have? What credentials did their Instructors have? Derek V The FAA requires a whole lot more of CFIs than is covered in the USPA ratings courses, and education professionals are exempted.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnDeere 0 #195 January 4, 2010 Quote At most, it only means I am a better teacher than Kallend. I would think you were. People normally can teach others better when they can relate to the other person. Now I would think its harder to teach when the teacher is constantly looking down on the student cause he knows he's better. Nothing opens like a Deere! You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #196 January 4, 2010 Quote>I doubt you would want someone with just a Boy Scout merit badge in >first aid to perform surgery on you. Just as I am sure you would not want a surgeon who has been trained solely by someone with only a PhD in education; you'd probably prefer a surgeon who has been trained by other surgeons (which, fortunately, is how the system works.) . Nice way of missing the point with a straw man. No-one suggests the skydiving part should be taught by non-skydivers. SO: why would you want the pedagogy part to be taught by non teachers?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #197 January 4, 2010 Quote John just show everyone how big your dick is and be done with it already. I guess the PA means that you don't have a valid response.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #198 January 4, 2010 QuoteThe FAA requires a whole lot more of CFIs than is covered in the USPA ratings courses, and education professionals are exempted. You did not answer my question; What "teaching credentials" did your CFI's have? Derek V Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #199 January 4, 2010 QuoteQuoteThe FAA requires a whole lot more of CFIs than is covered in the USPA ratings courses, and education professionals are exempted. You did not answer my question; What "teaching credentials" did your CFI's have? Derek V Because it's irrelevant. However, a CFI candidate must either hold an FAA ground instructor certificate, a current teacher's certificate authorizing him/her to teach at an educational level of the 7th grade or higher, be currently employed as a teacher at an accredited college or university, OR take ground school and pass the FAA's Fundamentals of Instructing (FOI) knowledge test, which is required before you can obtain a ground instructor certificate.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #200 January 4, 2010 Quote Quote Quote Nice rant. Sounds like an admission that they don't have any despite all the rhetoric about the importance of teaching. John just show everyone how big your dick is and be done with it already. +1 Thanks for that! Sometimes I'm childish. I should work on that.......---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
