Lodi Facing Million Dollar Lawsuit

[tetra316 0]

Thanks for the explanation.

So it would seem at a single plane dz, that a hop & pop at whatever altitude the plane happens to arrive at, should have a neligible impact. The only concern then being the dzo is getting just the hop & pop price, instead of a full slot.

I've always wondered the logic of a dz saying they will not do hop & pops unless 3 or more people are doing them. Seems to be more efficient if they let just one person do it per load instead of 3.

And charging nearly full price for one while saying they cost more ($15 vs. $21) still irks me

[wmw999 2,446]

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And charging nearly full price for one while saying they cost more ($15 vs. $21) still irks me

Remember that regardless of what they charge, the hop and pop person is still taking a seat that could have gone to altitude.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[likestojump 3]

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And charging nearly full price for one while saying they cost more ($15 vs. $21) still irks me

My guess is that fuel costs are a lot more negligible than the wear and tear on the aircraft.

Think about it - the Pilot still gets paid (most likely per load, so altitude does not matter), the aircraft still takes off and lands, and if anything the H'n'P makes the plane be in the air for a little longer instead of climbing and letting all go at full altitude.

Essentially what I am saying is that the fixed costs per load are far greater than the variable costs (fuel), which is why the tiny difference in price.

The most recent time I was wanting to get out low, the pilot commented that it would be cheaper and easier for me to go to full (though it was a small Cessna DZ, and that meant 9.5 :)

Personally, I just take whatever altitude they give me and try to enjoy the skydive :)

[NWFlyer 2]

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And charging nearly full price for one while saying they cost more ($15 vs. $21) still irks me

Remember that regardless of what they charge, the hop and pop person is still taking a seat that could have gone to altitude.

Wendy P.

Exactly. I suspect the (relatively) high price for H&Ps at most DZs is due more to opportunity cost than fuel cost.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[chrismgtis 0]

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And charging nearly full price for one while saying they cost more ($15 vs. $21) still irks me

Remember that regardless of what they charge, the hop and pop person is still taking a seat that could have gone to altitude.

Wendy P.

Exactly.

Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan

[rhys 0]

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Alrighty, then. So basically all the dzo's I've heard say hop & pops cost more, are lying. Very niceCrazy

Think about it, if the plane is leveled out, flaps on, power cut or any combination of these things in order to configure the plane for exit, you will not be climbing (at least as much as you were).

Then you power on begin you climb again etc.etc.

Are you at the same altitude as you were if you didn't power off?

Of course you are not, so you do burn more fuel (not too much) and more importantly time.

There may only be a minimal difference but there is a difference.

Saying it does not cost more to power off and level out is an inaccurate comment.

I don't care how experienced anyone is, if they say that then they are mis-informed or lying!

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[Heatmiser 0]

Ok, I am not a DZO, but I am a business owner. Basic business, you take your labor costs, (pilot, refueler, manifest, etc....) Fixed overhead costs...(rent on the hangar, payment and upkeep on the plane, a dozen other things I probably can't imagine), and disposable material, such as fuel, and spread that out through your product. You come up with a per slot cost...what it cost's the DZO to operate. Then comes the subjective part, you add profit. I hear people bitching all the time about someone making money. Profit is not a dirty word. If the DZO is swapping dollars, not making any profit, than why have the business? My point is the DZO decides how much profit he wants, and can, make. He offers you a service, and you decide if it is acceptable. Doesn't mean DZO's are taking advantage of anyone. They are charging what the market will allow. Quite frankly, a DZO can make the argument that if they did not do low passes, than EVERY one on the load would have to pay the price for the slot to the top. In those terms, they are actually losing out on the 7, or 10 dollars for that slot on the plane they would have gotten without the low pass. Maybe I'm naive, but cheaper lift tickets to a lower altitude on a flight going to full altitude is actually a DZO getting less money than he would have got. Again, what do I know.

What you say is reflective of your knowledge...HOW ya say it is reflective of your experience. Airtwardo

Someone's going to be spanked! Hopefully, it will be me. Skymama

[kelpdiver 2]

I think in Bill's case, the few dollars for the slot is less important than the time, at least on weekends. Losing a minute per load would translate to a lost load (or two) at the end of the day. And they're doing a lot of tandems on Saturday and Sunday.

I also suspect it's more than a minute.

[billvon 2,991]

>I think in Bill's case, the few dollars for the slot is less important than the
>time, at least on weekends.

I was told via PM that he is now configuring the aircraft for hop and pop exits, which is a good thing for all concerned.

[rhys 0]

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I was told via PM that he is now configuring the aircraft for hop and pop exits, which is a good thing for all concerned.

I did 150 (sport) jumps in lodi last july, and have been on well over a hundred loads this time round so far;

The plane 'is' configured for exit on the low passes and always has on every low pass that has occured that I have witnessed as far as I am aware.

If you jump up when exiting a 99 , you risk hitting the stabaliser, period.

just the same as many other jump ships. Flying in aeroplanes has inherent risk involved, especially while jumping from them.

If you are an idiot you are going to get hurt, this guy must have been an idiot!

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[billvon 2,991]

>If you jump up when exiting a 99 , you risk hitting the stabaliser, period.

Yep. Configuring the aircraft for a safer exit can help minimize the odds of that if someone screws up. Good to hear that he's doing that.

[bodypilot1 0]

The jury has ruled Bill Dause not liable nor guilty of any negligence in this case, as of Jan 27, 2010.

Experienced skydivers NEED to understand the aircraft they jump from, as well as when and HOW to exit the aircraft that takes them to altitude. Far too often they board the plane knowing nothing about it, when it takes them to altitude EVERY skydive! Skydiving is NOT only about stablity of ones self in the air, and the knowledge of a couple of parachutes, it's also about the aircraft that takes you there!
IMO, the bottom line is... If you do not like the aircraft, the exit speed, aircraft attitude or configuration on exit, or even the area you are exiting over, then DO NOT GET ON THE PLANE or DO NOT GET OUT!

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[rmsmith 1]

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The jury has ruled Bill Dause not liable nor guilty of any negligence in this case, as of Jan 27, 2010.

Great news!

[jimmyh 0]

I'm not sure if anybody is actually reading this thread, but this is where I am going to mike my one and only public statement about this case and it's resolution.

In my opinion, as one of the eyewitnesses of this incident and testifier in court, the only way to make sense of the decision of the jury, and to do honor to a fellow jumper who will NEVER EVER EVER EVER etc. etc. etc.enjoy life again is to think about it like this.....

Jury: "(those are quotes) we understand skydiving is dangerous and we can't decide anything about it."

good for us

They gave us power....a great deal!

Now what are we gonna do with that power? Keep in mind...we are not living in a time when the gift of power should be abused...hint hint...get out of jail free card...

And excuse me if I'm wrong...but is not skydiving in the United States self policing?

And if it is...why would anybody...anybody...support a man who has said to his staff..."this is not a democracy...this is a dictatorship!"


I mean seriously...in the interest of the sport of skydiving, and cheap jump tickets aside!...why?

[jimmyh 0]

And please...as a sport...let's stop blaming the jumper okay?

He jumped out of that plane exactly as all of you would have with his jump numbers on that flight!

I saw it, and do not call me a liar!

[rhys 0]

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[rhys 0]

It is great that common sence gets a go.

Congratulatons to Bill, Kathy and the Lodi crew!

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[likestojump 3]

hey Jimmy,

your opinion stinks of bias.

[tdog 0]

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hey Jimmy,

your opinion stinks of bias.

So does yours and mine. That is the nature of an opinion.

However I agree in some aspects with Jimmy... Just because there is a waiver and court precedent, it does not excuse unnecessary danger and we all should give our business to DZOs who operate the safest dzs they can, and do our best as jumpers to educate and self-police when we see others doing unnecessary reckless activities.

I have not been to Lodi, so I am not making any judgement in this case - however, if indeed there is a safer way to do anything at a reasonable cost - it should be done, and we in the sport should demand it or take our business elsewhere, so the DZs that are not operating safely are shut down and the risk of lawsuits in skydiving is reduced. Self police with our wallets... (again, I am not making judgement in this case, but supporting Jimmy's opinion in general)

[riggerpaul 1]

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And please...as a sport...let's stop blaming the jumper okay?

He jumped out of that plane exactly as all of you would have with his jump numbers on that flight!

I saw it, and do not call me a liar!

No, sorry, I don't think he jumped "exactly as all of you would have".

This is not calling you a liar. I don't argue that he may have jumped just as you might have. But he surely did not jump out just as I would have.

Most jumps I do these days have exits from a climbing King Air 90 on a low pass. I NEVER come anywhere close to the tail. I crouch in the door, or even kneel, and exit the aircraft downwards, plain and simple. If you want to visualize my exit, imagine that I am going headfirst through a trapdoor that is at the floor level right outside the door. I am below the aircraft from the outset. There is no chance for a tail strike.

If he didn't do what was necessary for a safe exit from the aircraft as it was configured, he made a mistake.

I am sad that he was hurt.

I am sad anytime any jumper gets hurt, no matter the cause or circumstance.

But it remains that the accident was a result of an exit that was not appropriate for the conditions.

[tdog 0]

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And if it is...why would anybody...anybody...support a man who has said to his staff..."this is not a democracy...this is a dictatorship!"

While I just supported you in another post, I am going to call you on this one. Maybe it was said in a context that was inappropriate - but a business owner is the dictator. If the business is owned by multiple shareholders, the shareholders will have a democracy of some sort outlined in the bylaws, but the employees, customers and vendors have no vote and thus are under a dictatorship.

Fortunately, no one has to give business to, or work for, anyone. Thus the dictators have financial incentive to build a business model that brings business and employees - or else the dictatorship falls when the bank account empties.

[jpjc2000 0]

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I'm not sure if anybody is actually reading this thread, but this is where I am going to mike my one and only public statement about this case and it's resolution.

In my opinion, as one of the eyewitnesses of this incident and testifier in court, the only way to make sense of the decision of the jury, and to do honor to a fellow jumper who will NEVER EVER EVER EVER etc. etc. etc.enjoy life again is to think about it like this.....

Jury: "(those are quotes) we understand skydiving is dangerous and we can't decide anything about it."

good for us

They gave us power....a great deal!

Now what are we gonna do with that power? Keep in mind...we are not living in a time when the gift of power should be abused...hint hint...get out of jail free card...

And excuse me if I'm wrong...but is not skydiving in the United States self policing?

And if it is...why would anybody...anybody...support a man who has said to his staff..."this is not a democracy...this is a dictatorship!"


I mean seriously...in the interest of the sport of skydiving, and cheap jump tickets aside!...why?

ALL business is a dictatorship, not a democracy...any business run like a democracy fails...history proves this!

[jumpwally 0]

Dude, You should take an English composition class,,,,what the hell is that post about ? does not make any sense,,,reword it to a one short paragrah opinion.....

smile, be nice, enjoy life
FB # - 1083

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

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And please...as a sport...let's stop blaming the jumper okay?

He jumped out of that plane exactly as all of you would have with his jump numbers on that flight!

I saw it, and do not call me a liar!

Correct me if I'm wrong - I wasn't there and don't have any first hand knowledge.

But didn't the injured jumper have a couple near-misses?

Wasn't he told not to exit that way?

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[crustySCSA69 0]

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I'm not sure if anybody is actually reading this thread, but this is where I am going to mike my one and only public statement about this case and it's resolution.

In my opinion, as one of the eyewitnesses of this incident and testifier in court, the only way to make sense of the decision of the jury, and to do honor to a fellow jumper who will NEVER EVER EVER EVER etc. etc. etc.enjoy life again is to think about it like this.....

Jury: "(those are quotes) we understand skydiving is dangerous and we can't decide anything about it."

good for us

They gave us power....a great deal!

Now what are we gonna do with that power? Keep in mind...we are not living in a time when the gift of power should be abused...hint hint...get out of jail free card...

And excuse me if I'm wrong...but is not skydiving in the United States self policing?

And if it is...why would anybody...anybody...support a man who has said to his staff..."this is not a democracy...this is a dictatorship!"


I mean seriously...in the interest of the sport of skydiving, and cheap jump tickets aside!...why?

"And if it is...why would anybody...anybody...support a man who has said to his staff..."this is not a democracy...this is a dictatorship!"
"

have you EVER worked in a business where this wasn't the case ?? how sheltered are you ??

Mussolini, the 'father' of fascism , was quoted as saying he wished it was called 'corporation'

it's a BUSINESS bonehead, not a happy band of brothers, whoever is in charge, is IN CHARGE, you just pray he is not a dickhead ...