skyyhi 0 #26 June 8, 2005 Thanks Bill. . .I have only practiced the flat turn up high. . .wanted to make sure I could do it consistently before downsizing to my 170. With my 170 I can do it with much less toggle input than with my 210. I do practice both consistently but have only used the braked turn low to the ground (practicing - not in an emergent situation. . .). I will work more on the flat turn now since I can consistently do the braked turn without much thought. . .________________________________________ Take risks not to escape life… but to prevent life from escaping. ~ A bumper sticker at the DZ FGF #6 Darcy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #27 June 8, 2005 A carving turn can save your ass, its not just all about fun. I know that I've used a carving turn while still diving before to avoid an unseen obsticle (golf cart that just pulled up right in my swoop path). If it wasn't for the ability to carve and carve while still diving I would have slammed into that damned thing at the height of my swoop speed.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,006 #28 June 8, 2005 >A carving turn can save your ass, its not just all about fun. A carving turn is done during a high speed landing, and is one method of doing such landings. It's not part of an emergency manuever on a normal landing. In other words, while a carving turn is a good manuever for a hook turner to know, it's not really necessary for a newer jumper learning manuevers to save him/herself during a normal approach. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #29 June 8, 2005 Its not? Really Bill. You know, I thought similarly as you until the 2nd time I took the Scott Miller course. We got talking about being able to carve a turn and what sort of screwups that low time jumpers tend to make. A low turn in an off landing is a bad situation to be in. Being able to do a hard carving "flare turn" to get your wings level and get you away from an impending obstical might just save your body and your life.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,006 #30 June 8, 2005 >Being able to do a hard carving "flare turn" to get your wings level . . We're talking about two different things, then. Being able to level your wing rapidly and flare is a basic survival skill, one Brian Germain references often in his book. I don't call that a carving turn. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #31 June 8, 2005 Ok, I wasn't very clear. Being able to do a turn while in a hard flare (aka a carve) then getting your wings level. What good is it that you got your wing over your head if you still slam into an obsticle? Infact there was a fatality just recently (past couple of years) at SD Dallas due to hitting the hanger. Its just another skill to have in your bag, saying that someone shouldn't learn a skill, practice it up high and learn more about how their canopy performs is completely asinine! I tell low time jumpers to do altitude clear and pulls and go play with these sorts of things, learn all about how to fly their canopy as they can, even if the skill is advanced. If its advanced that doesn't mean they can't learn about it, just that it would be wise to keep the learning and practice well above pattern altitude. So tell me Bill, why a low time jumper shouldn't learn as many skills as they can?--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #32 June 8, 2005 Newbie confusion & question. What I was taught as a flat turn seems to be a braked turn. However, reading the description of a "true" flat turn it seems to me that it takes significantly more skill to get right. Obviously, a lot of practise as with anything else in this sport is required. But - while knowing it's better not to get into the situation in the first place, but us newbies do make mistakes - if a turn is needed, would it be safer for a low number jumper to do a braked turn than a flat turn simply because it seems easier to actually get right? (Btw, re another poster's comments, although a newbie I'm not scared of downwind landings. I've done one, after a turn induced by a half collapsed canopy from turbulence on final when i thought I was too low to turn back. Jump 9, and the look of absolute relief on the CI's face only became really understandable to me after I discovered the incidents forum here. The landing was a bit scary cos it was damn fast, but not as scary as some of what I've read here. )Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Avion 0 #33 June 8, 2005 The answer to your question is that it's canopy dependent. When turning in brakes, some canopies will turn flatter by letting toggle up, other will turn flatter by pull one farther down. You have to play with you canopy and find out which method turns flatter and which method turns faster on the canopy your flying. Making this determination is one of the excersizes in Scott Miller's canopy course. Cheers Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
veter_ 0 #34 June 8, 2005 QuoteYou have to play with you canopy and find out which method turns flatter How do you find this out? GPS? Neptune? Regular altimeters don't have enough accuracy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
veter_ 0 #35 June 8, 2005 QuoteBeing able to do a turn while in a hard flare (aka a carve) then getting your wings level. Yes, that's what Brian Germain told me. How can a low time jumper practice this, though? There are no obstacles in the sky to practice Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ianmdrennan 2 #36 June 8, 2005 Look up at your canopy. You should be trying to intersect the middle of the canopy with the horizon (like a sideways T). Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #37 June 8, 2005 I always preferred "reverse toggle turn" for the flare, then turn style of 'flat' turning. Nothing ambiguous about the meaning. Flat turn, or braked turn doesn't really tell you, as this thread has shown. But I don't know of a term for the turn then flare approach. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,006 #38 June 8, 2005 >So tell me Bill, why a low time jumper shouldn't learn as many skills >as they can? They should! But they should also prioritize. Sure, it's good to know how to do a back-in on a 100 way, or how to fly a room slot - but the ability to launch a stable 2-way exit should come first. Similarly, there are skills you should learn first in your canopy-control career. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Avion 0 #39 June 8, 2005 QuoteHow do you find this out? GPS? Neptune? Regular altimeters don't have enough accuracy. That's one of the things that make it difficult to master, lacking an accurate gauge for comparison. Basically, I watch the horizon, the ground, and my canopy. After all the most important goal here is to maintain yourself under the canopy, and this can be judged by doing that, and by using the seat of your pants G force gauge. If your feeling pulled out to the side, your turning to hard. Cheers Opps, I just realized you meant turning in brakes rather than flat turns. You'll notice right away. For the most part on the canopies I flown while in brakes, letting up on on toggle will cause a faster turn with more roll, that is swing out, and pulling down farther on one will result in a much slower turn with less roll. This is something you will, or at least should be able to, notice without any help from gizmoes or gauges Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bseriesboosted 0 #40 June 8, 2005 I can now say that a flat turn saved my ass.... I set up for my landing way to high and ended up between a pond a tree and over a camper and a car also headed for the hanger I had to turn to avoid going in the pond but i was low maybe 25 30 feet. i wish i could draw a pic. of the place i was in but it was not pretty. i had been diving my canopy to try to land short of the pond,but it didnt work and i was goin for the middle of it. there was little room between the pond and the trees to fly so i dropped the fronts when i seen it was not working and grabbed the rears. not pulling yet but i had them in my hands. when i reached the corner of the pond just beside the trees i pulled the right rear a little bit to make my turn then the other to flatten the glide to make it over the camper and the car. i let go of them and flared and landed softly about 20 feet from the hanger... it really scared me but i felt and my instructor who seen it happen felt the same that i made the right choice I don't know if that is the perfect flat turn or not but it kept me out of the hospital... i have seen a couple incedents were flat turns would have saved people but they toggled it and hurt themselves... Now i am glad i spent the time doing altitude hop an pops to learn things like this.... well my rant over...Pruitt Skydive The Farm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #41 June 8, 2005 Quotei had been diving my canopy to try to land short of the pond,but it didnt work and i was goin for the middle of it. there was little room between the pond and the trees to fly so i dropped the fronts when i seen it was not working and grabbed the rears. not pulling yet but i had them in my hands. when i reached the corner of the pond just beside the trees i pulled the right rear a little bit to make my turn then the other to flatten the glide to make it over the camper and the car. i let go of them and flared and landed softly about 20 feet from the hanger... Open question - why do this with rear risers instead of toggles? Won't toggles turn more quickly, or is that dependent on the canopy, or at least on whether the rig allows to bring down the slider? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #42 June 9, 2005 QuoteThey should! But they should also prioritize. I never said differently, I was simply responding to your comment that its a "fun swooping thing" (paraphrase) implying that low time jumpers shouldn't worry about it. I will tell you that my infamous off landing (I'm sure you remember me talking about that 2-3 years ago) when I didn't have that many jumps being able to carve saved my ass. Flat turns were used to pick my spot and a carve was needed so I didn't hit a sign or a tree.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ianmdrennan 2 #43 June 9, 2005 QuoteOpen question - why do this with rear risers instead of toggles? Won't toggles turn more quickly, or is that dependent on the canopy, or at least on whether the rig allows to bring down the slider? I've seen more than one person femur themselves going to rears during inappropriate situations. This is one of them IMO (inappropriate, not femur). Lately people have gotten obsessed with using rears low to the ground just to be trendy. Toggles are almost always a better option. Unless you have a broken line, the toggles are already in your hand. Plus they offer better slow speed flight characteristics than rears, which if done incorrectly will put you in the hurt locker. Should you learn to use rears? Absolutely. Just look around though, everyone suddenly thinks they need them to land properly. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Avion 0 #44 June 9, 2005 QuoteJust look around though, everyone suddenly thinks they need them to land properly. From the talk I've heard around the DZ, using rear risers to pull out of the dive during a high speed approach is the newest technique now. Supposedly, it bleeds off less forward speed than toggles would, allowing for a longer swoop. Cheers Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bseriesboosted 0 #45 June 9, 2005 QuoteQuoteOpen question - why do this with rear risers instead of toggles? Won't toggles turn more quickly, or is that dependent on the canopy, or at least on whether the rig allows to bring down the slider? I've seen more than one person femur themselves going to rears during inappropriate situations. This is one of them IMO (inappropriate, not femur). Lately people have gotten obsessed with using rears low to the ground just to be trendy. Toggles are almost always a better option. Unless you have a broken line, the toggles are already in your hand. Plus they offer better slow speed flight characteristics than rears, which if done incorrectly will put you in the hurt locker. Should you learn to use rears? Absolutely. Just look around though, everyone suddenly thinks they need them to land properly. Blues, Ian so are you saying that i made the wrong choice by turning with soft riser imputs because knowing that i also had to flatten out to make it over the camper using a toggle would have most likely pounded me in the ground or slowed my speed to the point were i landed on top of the camper...neither of witch were a choice in my mind at the time...Pruitt Skydive The Farm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,006 #46 June 9, 2005 >using rear risers to pull out of the dive during a high speed approach is >the newest technique now. True, but keep in mind that it's not the best way to bail from a too-low approach. Toggles will get you more lift more quickly, and won't stall the canopy as soon. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #47 June 9, 2005 I asked the question because I wondered if toggles would turn faster, thus giving you more altitude remaining to complete the landing. Can only go with the words you wrote...I might have opted for the pond landing. That's not going to kill me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ianmdrennan 2 #48 June 9, 2005 No, I'm saying you used a more dangerous option over a safer one available to you. Not saying you did something wrong, more I'm trying to point out to others who may find themselves in a similar situation than it could have been done safer via toggles. No offense intended. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ianmdrennan 2 #49 June 9, 2005 QuoteFrom the talk I've heard around the DZ, using rear risers to pull out of the dive during a high speed approach is the newest technique now. Supposedly, it bleeds off less forward speed than toggles would, allowing for a longer swoop. That is correct yes, but it is an ADVANCED landing technique (As Bill already pointed out, it's easy to do a high speed stall). Trust me when I tell you that a lot of people using rears to do HP landings really should be focusing on other techniques first but this is drifting the thread off topic. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyyhi 0 #50 June 9, 2005 QuoteCan only go with the words you wrote...I might have opted for the pond landing. That's not going to kill me Had a teammate choose the pond over the hard ground landing. . .true he lived and is jumping still today but he had to have open heart surgery for a torn aorta. . .so this is not necessarily good thinking. . . Sorry, back to the topic. . .________________________________________ Take risks not to escape life… but to prevent life from escaping. ~ A bumper sticker at the DZ FGF #6 Darcy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
ianmdrennan 2 #36 June 8, 2005 Look up at your canopy. You should be trying to intersect the middle of the canopy with the horizon (like a sideways T). Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #37 June 8, 2005 I always preferred "reverse toggle turn" for the flare, then turn style of 'flat' turning. Nothing ambiguous about the meaning. Flat turn, or braked turn doesn't really tell you, as this thread has shown. But I don't know of a term for the turn then flare approach. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,006 #38 June 8, 2005 >So tell me Bill, why a low time jumper shouldn't learn as many skills >as they can? They should! But they should also prioritize. Sure, it's good to know how to do a back-in on a 100 way, or how to fly a room slot - but the ability to launch a stable 2-way exit should come first. Similarly, there are skills you should learn first in your canopy-control career. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Avion 0 #39 June 8, 2005 QuoteHow do you find this out? GPS? Neptune? Regular altimeters don't have enough accuracy. That's one of the things that make it difficult to master, lacking an accurate gauge for comparison. Basically, I watch the horizon, the ground, and my canopy. After all the most important goal here is to maintain yourself under the canopy, and this can be judged by doing that, and by using the seat of your pants G force gauge. If your feeling pulled out to the side, your turning to hard. Cheers Opps, I just realized you meant turning in brakes rather than flat turns. You'll notice right away. For the most part on the canopies I flown while in brakes, letting up on on toggle will cause a faster turn with more roll, that is swing out, and pulling down farther on one will result in a much slower turn with less roll. This is something you will, or at least should be able to, notice without any help from gizmoes or gauges Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bseriesboosted 0 #40 June 8, 2005 I can now say that a flat turn saved my ass.... I set up for my landing way to high and ended up between a pond a tree and over a camper and a car also headed for the hanger I had to turn to avoid going in the pond but i was low maybe 25 30 feet. i wish i could draw a pic. of the place i was in but it was not pretty. i had been diving my canopy to try to land short of the pond,but it didnt work and i was goin for the middle of it. there was little room between the pond and the trees to fly so i dropped the fronts when i seen it was not working and grabbed the rears. not pulling yet but i had them in my hands. when i reached the corner of the pond just beside the trees i pulled the right rear a little bit to make my turn then the other to flatten the glide to make it over the camper and the car. i let go of them and flared and landed softly about 20 feet from the hanger... it really scared me but i felt and my instructor who seen it happen felt the same that i made the right choice I don't know if that is the perfect flat turn or not but it kept me out of the hospital... i have seen a couple incedents were flat turns would have saved people but they toggled it and hurt themselves... Now i am glad i spent the time doing altitude hop an pops to learn things like this.... well my rant over...Pruitt Skydive The Farm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #41 June 8, 2005 Quotei had been diving my canopy to try to land short of the pond,but it didnt work and i was goin for the middle of it. there was little room between the pond and the trees to fly so i dropped the fronts when i seen it was not working and grabbed the rears. not pulling yet but i had them in my hands. when i reached the corner of the pond just beside the trees i pulled the right rear a little bit to make my turn then the other to flatten the glide to make it over the camper and the car. i let go of them and flared and landed softly about 20 feet from the hanger... Open question - why do this with rear risers instead of toggles? Won't toggles turn more quickly, or is that dependent on the canopy, or at least on whether the rig allows to bring down the slider? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #42 June 9, 2005 QuoteThey should! But they should also prioritize. I never said differently, I was simply responding to your comment that its a "fun swooping thing" (paraphrase) implying that low time jumpers shouldn't worry about it. I will tell you that my infamous off landing (I'm sure you remember me talking about that 2-3 years ago) when I didn't have that many jumps being able to carve saved my ass. Flat turns were used to pick my spot and a carve was needed so I didn't hit a sign or a tree.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #43 June 9, 2005 QuoteOpen question - why do this with rear risers instead of toggles? Won't toggles turn more quickly, or is that dependent on the canopy, or at least on whether the rig allows to bring down the slider? I've seen more than one person femur themselves going to rears during inappropriate situations. This is one of them IMO (inappropriate, not femur). Lately people have gotten obsessed with using rears low to the ground just to be trendy. Toggles are almost always a better option. Unless you have a broken line, the toggles are already in your hand. Plus they offer better slow speed flight characteristics than rears, which if done incorrectly will put you in the hurt locker. Should you learn to use rears? Absolutely. Just look around though, everyone suddenly thinks they need them to land properly. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Avion 0 #44 June 9, 2005 QuoteJust look around though, everyone suddenly thinks they need them to land properly. From the talk I've heard around the DZ, using rear risers to pull out of the dive during a high speed approach is the newest technique now. Supposedly, it bleeds off less forward speed than toggles would, allowing for a longer swoop. Cheers Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bseriesboosted 0 #45 June 9, 2005 QuoteQuoteOpen question - why do this with rear risers instead of toggles? Won't toggles turn more quickly, or is that dependent on the canopy, or at least on whether the rig allows to bring down the slider? I've seen more than one person femur themselves going to rears during inappropriate situations. This is one of them IMO (inappropriate, not femur). Lately people have gotten obsessed with using rears low to the ground just to be trendy. Toggles are almost always a better option. Unless you have a broken line, the toggles are already in your hand. Plus they offer better slow speed flight characteristics than rears, which if done incorrectly will put you in the hurt locker. Should you learn to use rears? Absolutely. Just look around though, everyone suddenly thinks they need them to land properly. Blues, Ian so are you saying that i made the wrong choice by turning with soft riser imputs because knowing that i also had to flatten out to make it over the camper using a toggle would have most likely pounded me in the ground or slowed my speed to the point were i landed on top of the camper...neither of witch were a choice in my mind at the time...Pruitt Skydive The Farm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,006 #46 June 9, 2005 >using rear risers to pull out of the dive during a high speed approach is >the newest technique now. True, but keep in mind that it's not the best way to bail from a too-low approach. Toggles will get you more lift more quickly, and won't stall the canopy as soon. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #47 June 9, 2005 I asked the question because I wondered if toggles would turn faster, thus giving you more altitude remaining to complete the landing. Can only go with the words you wrote...I might have opted for the pond landing. That's not going to kill me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #48 June 9, 2005 No, I'm saying you used a more dangerous option over a safer one available to you. Not saying you did something wrong, more I'm trying to point out to others who may find themselves in a similar situation than it could have been done safer via toggles. No offense intended. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #49 June 9, 2005 QuoteFrom the talk I've heard around the DZ, using rear risers to pull out of the dive during a high speed approach is the newest technique now. Supposedly, it bleeds off less forward speed than toggles would, allowing for a longer swoop. That is correct yes, but it is an ADVANCED landing technique (As Bill already pointed out, it's easy to do a high speed stall). Trust me when I tell you that a lot of people using rears to do HP landings really should be focusing on other techniques first but this is drifting the thread off topic. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyyhi 0 #50 June 9, 2005 QuoteCan only go with the words you wrote...I might have opted for the pond landing. That's not going to kill me Had a teammate choose the pond over the hard ground landing. . .true he lived and is jumping still today but he had to have open heart surgery for a torn aorta. . .so this is not necessarily good thinking. . . Sorry, back to the topic. . .________________________________________ Take risks not to escape life… but to prevent life from escaping. ~ A bumper sticker at the DZ FGF #6 Darcy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
