How close is too close on landing?

[napalmboy 0]

Had my 50th jump yesterday. Freefall was an excitingly poorly executed 5-way with people far more experienced than I and was an absolute blast for not being able to build the formation for 8,000 feet.

On landing, though, my pattern ended up a little bit shorter than I wanted it to be, and I landed near the loading area. I was on the correct side of the loading area (which is to say, on the opposite side of the loading area than the runway), but still landed about 10 feet off to the side of the mock-up that's out there, earning me a round of (somewhat sarcastic) cheers from the people waiting for the plane, and one polite and helpful round of advice from a coach about being able to make small corrections to the flight path, even when low (stressing the "small" in "small corrections").

I appreciate that people are looking out for me, especially with the numbers I've got. But how close is too close to obstacles? From where I was flying, I was confident that I wasn't going to hit anything, so I can't tell if it just looked like I was going to hit the mock-up, or if being 5-10 feet away from something isn't nearly far enough. I suppose that one correct answer is "As long as you have the extra space, use it," but I'm still unsure if I was actually okay or if I'm just not experienced to know better yet.

Of course it's impossible to judge this situation if you weren't there, but how comfortable are you landing near obstacles that wouldn't cause turbulence? Landing near a row of trees of the runway seems to be different than a four-foot high mock-up (or is it?). Are there other factors here that I'm not mentioning/considering? Thanks for your thoughts.

Well, the door was open...

[mjosparky 4]

You were probably too close, seeing how that is not where you wanted to land. If you were within 10 or 15 feet of the obstacle, you were about a second of air time from hitting it. Since you were shot, it sounds like you had a case of "got to make it back". All it takes is that one second, that 10/15 feet and its a ride to the hospital.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[jman 0]

I was on the correct side of the loading area (which is to say, on the opposite side of the loading area than the runway), but still landed about 10 feet off to the side of the mock-up that's out there.

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The people who are standing around, and/or dirt diving near the mock up while waiting to load may not be paying attention to the incoming traffic. They may walk into your flight path while landing that close to the mock up/loading area. Someone doing their first tandem would never think to look out for traffic.
There is also a ditch close by which has a little bit of a rise which can be a surprise if your not ready for it.

[AndyMan 7]

There's an old pilot addage that I'll repeat here.

Superior pilots
Use superior judgement
To avoid using superior skill.

Landing 5-10 feet from an obstacle is a feat that usually involves skill and/or luck, especially when the situation gets more complicated by things like crosswinds and turbulence.

By 1000 feet you should have picked a suitable landing area that you're able to reach.

According to the USPA SIM, a suitable landing area for someone with an 'A' license is one where you're able to be at least 100 meters from the nearest obstacle. See the BSR's, section 2-1(h).

So, by 1000 feet you should have picked a field big enough so that you can safely land 100 meters from the nearest obstacle.

Good job on the tight landing area. It's definately wise to avoid that in the future, though.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[napalmboy 0]

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Landing 5-10 feet from an obstacle is a feat that usually involves skill and/or luck, especially when the situation gets more complicated by things like crosswinds and turbulence.

Yeah, I thought about that. Had it not been a beautiful day free of shifting winds, this could have had a different ending. I'd like to think that I'd be smart enough to not jump in that, but I haven't had a chance to prove myself on this yet...

I'd forgotten about the BSR. I guess I should start studying again, especially if I'm thinking about getting a B license this year.

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Good job on the tight landing area. It's definately wise to avoid that in the future, though.

Thanks. I just wish these things felt stupid as they were happening instead of just afterwards.

Oh, well. I've got two days worth of Scott Miller's course in two weeks...hopefully that will help me stop being dumb.

Well, the door was open...

[councilman24 37]

Nothing will stop you from being dumb.

But hopefully you'll survive.

You were too close. Too many things happen to low to the ground for you to be going into stuff like that. It's a mistake for anybody, not just you.

Also, for future reference remembe that your 2 feet wide at the ground but 15 to 20 or more feet wide at 10 or 15 feet! You canopy needs to miss everything to. Especially until you land but even then you don't want to hang on something and risk damage. (Like most of us old fart have done!)

I was once scheduled to join some of the guys on a race track demo. I'd actually done it before but landed behind the track on purpose. Now, we go in to the front straight away. The track is a 1.4 mile I think and the infield is FULL of trucks and trailers. The track is about 30 feet wide. But it has a fence hanging over both the outside and the inside. I figured that I had about a 8 foot wide "landing strip" to keep my canopy from hanging onto either fence. Along with about 200' between the wires over the track in the middle of turn one and the wires over the track at the middle of the front straight. The idea was to set in there. Now the other guys had been doing this one for several years. But this was the first time I was scheduled for it. I was a nevous wreck and out pacing off the landing area. Luckily the demo was weathered out.

But this is a case where there was lots of room for my body and not much room for my canopy.

Look up and see just how big you are.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[AggieDave 6]

Try drawing out your landing pattern on a copy of a photo of your DZ. Then fly the pattern you drew, if you were off of your intended target, then you can adjust the pattern accordingly.

Not only that, but having a solid plan before you get in the plane will definately keep you out of more trouble then just going up there and "winging it."

This is one of the most important things I've learned from Scott Miller. Hell, I do this (although mentally) on every jump now and not only has it made me a better swooper, its made me really accurate with my tandem landings too. It helped just an extra little bit.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[riggerrob 643]

"Too close" means any time a gust or dropping wind or thermal or down draft or one second's inattention under canopy would put you ON the obstacle.
And - like buddy said - landing anywhere near pedestrians is just asking for trouble. You can never predict which direction they will move.

[billvon 3,006]

>but how comfortable are you landing near obstacles that wouldn't
>cause turbulence? Landing near a row of trees of the runway seems
>to be different than a four-foot high mock-up (or is it?).

There is no problem landing six inches from a windblade, or a pylon, or your pal if you are landing there because you put yourself there. But there is a very big problem if you ended up six inches away from those obstacles because "the wind just put you there" or whatever. That means that next time you might just end up a foot closer if the wind does something different, and that would lead to some serious pain.

In general, landing near people is a lot more risky than landing near objects, because a) objects don't move and b) if you hit the object, the only person you will injure will be you.

[tombuch 0]

Don't sweat it too much. I'm guessing the crew at the boarding area saw you coming and expected much worse. We tend to be a bit harsh with each other when somebody lands near any object or person, but mostly it's just in fun. I hate landing an airplane when there are people at The Ranch boarding area because I know there will be so many critical eyes watching me, and any little fumble will get critiqued. I guess it's an ego thing.

I didn't see your landing, but I assume you were facing toward the mountains or toward the pond and using the long dimension of the landing area in case you ended up too short or long. That's a good way to manage the space. As long as you were not flying directly at the boarding area/mock up and you were confident you could avoid all the people, tent, and mock up, it shouldn't have been a big problem.

With all that said, the area around the boarding area is a general danger zone and should be avoided if possible for many reasons. First, it is where airplanes taxi and they have big spinner things that make lots of wind. Second, there are lots of people walking in the area and often they are not paying attention to landing parachutes. Third, there is a ditch that runs across the field by the boarding area and that can cause confusion when you flare. Fourth, the area features undefined turbulence and is sort of like a 'devils triangle' for landings.

So, if you must land near the boarding area, by all means do it, but avoid flying directly at the mock-up/tent, and watch for people and turbulence.
.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[napalmboy 0]

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I didn't see your landing, but I assume you were facing toward the mountains or toward the pond and using the long dimension of the landing area in case you ended up too short or long. That's a good way to manage the space. As long as you were not flying directly at the boarding area/mock up and you were confident you could avoid all the people, tent, and mock up, it shouldn't have been a big problem.

That's correct; we were landing towards the pond, so my final approach ended up crossing over the path out to the loading area. Nobody was on the path and I was sure I wasn't going to hit anything (until people afterwards told me not to fly so close to obstacles).

That said, thanks for the advice about that specific area, and boarding/high traffic areas in general. I'll do my best to be safe...it feels like I've got a lot to learn about everything one should be thinking about when landing. I guess knowing that is the first step.

Well, the door was open...

[peregrinerose 0]

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That said, thanks for the advice about that specific area, and boarding/high traffic areas in general. I'll do my best to be safe...it feels like I've got a lot to learn about everything one should be thinking about when landing. I guess knowing that is the first step.

As a newbie just past 50 jumps myself, I think this was well said. The dangerous part of jumping (or any hobby/profession) is not knowing just how much you don't know.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[Scrumpot 1]

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The dangerous part of jumping... ...is not knowing just how much you don't know.

Nicely said, Jen.
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone