What Can We Do About Skyride II

[pilotdave 0]

I think you asked me how they have hurt me personally? They haven't. It's not personal.

I don't have any idea what point you're trying to make. Skyride is bad for the sport. That's my opinion based on what I've seen them do for years. I take it you don't agree with me and see skyride as a company that only causes problems for whuffos that we don't need to care about?

Dave

[johndh1 0]

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what about a murderer?

what if O.J. simpson opened a DZ? Wait.....he does run a couple in tennessee right?..........oh nevermind I was thinking of someone else.

Oh, Please...Divert? Deflect? "Don't look at me! Look at HIM!"
Thanks, though, because that has less to do with my "irrelevant" comment about Billy Vance than anything so far concerning "WTF can we do about What's-It's-Name!" An old pioneer saying here in Colorado goes, "when you circle your wagons, be sure of who all is in your camp."

Jeff, these are good words to live by.

Roll Tide Roll

[lancefrazier 0]

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I wanted to break down your post piece-by-piece, by statement, but I cannot using all the symbols parting it out and responding, so I'll have to just make a few statements:

If you knowingly participate in a crime, you are still guilty, either legally or morally, whether or not you are caught.

As far as the questionably-funded dz's you mentioned, how much is innuendo and how much is proven fact? (Let me say, I know exactly what you are talking about, however, I have never seen proof-positive as I have in the SR case, firsthand. Also, I do not frequent the dz's in question. I know a lot more than you think I know).

Non-refundable gift-certificates are a crime, though I will give it to you not as severe as those from drugs or murder or violence (or child sex trade, as has been ridiculously compared); nevertheless, they should be dealt with.

Your argument about some supposed past drug operations in skydiving do not concern me at the moment (nor do those alleged in that movie a few years back concerning the CIA involvement in heroin-trafficking in the 70's) This is not to give them a free pass, but rather one to ask that we keep this conversation more contemporary.

Sadly, if only skydivers knew about Skyride, this whole thing would be a moot point because it wouldn't exist. It is not an internal conflict, but rather, one which affects the general public of those who know no better than to click on the nearest website pointed out on "Skydive North Pole, only to find that Santa lives just outside of Cedartown, Georgia"

I honestly don't think that when you ask government official about skydiving that they will pointedly make issue of drug trafficking, but if you'll contact the Georgia Attorney General, the most recent experience IS the fraud involved with one particular operation. Can you name another skydiving operation that has the same notoriety?

The remainder of your argument appears to me being that Skyride may be bad, but drugs and child-sex are worse!

For once, I am at a loss for words...

well don't worry john, i'll show you how!

"If you knowingly participate in a crime, you are still guilty, either legally or morally, whether or not you are caught."
-absolutely correct!

"As far as the questionably-funded dz's you mentioned, how much is innuendo and how much is proven fact? (Let me say, I know exactly what you are talking about, however, I have never seen proof-positive as I have in the SR case, firsthand. Also, I do not frequent the dz's in question. I know a lot more than you think I know). "
-no one is going to drag that out in this thread, trust me. oh, and i'm sure you know all about it....

"Your argument about some supposed past drug operations in skydiving do not concern me at the moment (nor do those alleged in that movie a few years back concerning the CIA involvement in heroin-trafficking in the 70's) This is not to give them a free pass, but rather one to ask that we keep this conversation more contemporary. "
- your team brought it up! i take it that you italics on "past" drug operations indicates that if someone got away with it it's acceptable. nice.

"Non-refundable gift-certificates are a crime, though I will give it to you not as severe as those from drugs or murder or violence (or child sex trade, as has been ridiculously compared); nevertheless, they should be dealt with."
-on what planet? do you think that the gift cards pushed by every retailer in america are refundable? admission to disney is NONREFUNDABLE. is that a crime? gift certificates are nearly universally nonrefundable my friend!

"Sadly, if only skydivers knew about Skyride, this whole thing would be a moot point because it wouldn't exist. It is not an internal conflict, but rather, one which affects the general public of those who know no better than to click on the nearest website pointed out on "Skydive North Pole, only to find that Santa lives just outside of Cedartown, Georgia" "
-caveat emptor, welcome to free market capitalism. if i shop online for socks, what compels zappos to inform me of the shoe store around the corner.

"I honestly don't think that when you ask government official about skydiving that they will pointedly make issue of drug trafficking,"
- oh some certainly will. and the georgia attorney general has dealt with FAR NASTIER events on georgia dz's than upset tandem customers. trust me buddy boy...

"The remainder of your argument appears to me being that Skyride may be bad, but drugs and child-sex are worse! "
-which is a rational position he is entitled to...

"For once, I am at a loss for words... "
-good, get some sleep!

well im not a skyride fan by any means, but this sport is and always has been rich in moraly questionable behavior. -parabuteo

[lancefrazier 0]

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I think you asked me how they have hurt me personally? They haven't. It's not personal.

I don't have any idea what point you're trying to make. Skyride is bad for the sport. That's my opinion based on what I've seen them do for years. I take it you don't agree with me and see skyride as a company that only causes problems for whuffos that we don't need to care about?

Dave

read the thread dave, READ!

well im not a skyride fan by any means, but this sport is and always has been rich in moraly questionable behavior. -parabuteo

[Jumpdude 0]

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billy vance, dz.com is your life. i'm sorry....

No, it's not. His life is now his wife and his family; skydiving itself has taken a back seat perhaps, but his knowledge and sense of "right v. wrong" is something that he still chooses to advocate on here (however brash it may be at times), considering his close involvement with the consequences of what Skyride did on a smaller scale in the Southeast earlier on.

Each and every time anyone want's to throw out the fact that somehow Skyride's biggest and most vocal opponent has no say because of the fact that Billy may not jump as much as they themselves do currently, or as much as he used to, let me remind them of a few facts which DO give Billy the credibility to speak out - jump numbers within the past month be damned:

Among his accomplishments while in this sport, he has received
the Falcon,
the Double Falcon,
the Eagle,
the Double Eagle,
the 36W Silver Falcon,
the 64W Golden Eagle,
Star Crest Recipient,
Star Crest Soloist,
4-Stack CRW,
8-Stack CCR,
8-Stack CCS,
12FF,
Gold Wings,
PRO 120,
1997 Alabama 40-way RW,
1997 Georgia 64-way RW (with only 400 jumps),
1997 New Jersey 100 way RW,
1999 New Jersey 101 way RW,
1999 Virginia 88-way RW,
2003 Alabama 10-stack CRW,
2005 South Carolina 30 Diamond CRW,
8 separate Deaf World Record skydives,
22 Demos,
Earned a slot on the 300 way World Record attempt but broke his arm a month before they were to begin and gave up his slot.
He is the only person to hold the Alabama 40-way and 10-stack CRW, made his first 100-way with only 500 jumps, and earned his slot on the 300-way attempt before he had 600 jumps.


You can say he's crude, loud, obnoxious, a thorn in your side, and even that he has terrible breath and farts in elevators, but you CAN'T say Billy's only life is spouting about that organization on this newsgroup.

irrelevant!

irrelevant! How is Billy's accomplishments Irrelevant??? Just another deflection tactic to keep from owning up to supporting a criminal organization, And I'm just talking about the sLyride scam!


All that evidence can't be wrong!!

Refuse to Lose!!!
Failure is NOT an option!
1800skyrideripoff.com
Nashvilleskydiving.org

[lancefrazier 0]

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billy vance, dz.com is your life. i'm sorry....

No, it's not. His life is now his wife and his family; skydiving itself has taken a back seat perhaps, but his knowledge and sense of "right v. wrong" is something that he still chooses to advocate on here (however brash it may be at times), considering his close involvement with the consequences of what Skyride did on a smaller scale in the Southeast earlier on.

Each and every time anyone want's to throw out the fact that somehow Skyride's biggest and most vocal opponent has no say because of the fact that Billy may not jump as much as they themselves do currently, or as much as he used to, let me remind them of a few facts which DO give Billy the credibility to speak out - jump numbers within the past month be damned:

Among his accomplishments while in this sport, he has received
the Falcon,
the Double Falcon,
the Eagle,
the Double Eagle,
the 36W Silver Falcon,
the 64W Golden Eagle,
Star Crest Recipient,
Star Crest Soloist,
4-Stack CRW,
8-Stack CCR,
8-Stack CCS,
12FF,
Gold Wings,
PRO 120,
1997 Alabama 40-way RW,
1997 Georgia 64-way RW (with only 400 jumps),
1997 New Jersey 100 way RW,
1999 New Jersey 101 way RW,
1999 Virginia 88-way RW,
2003 Alabama 10-stack CRW,
2005 South Carolina 30 Diamond CRW,
8 separate Deaf World Record skydives,
22 Demos,
Earned a slot on the 300 way World Record attempt but broke his arm a month before they were to begin and gave up his slot.
He is the only person to hold the Alabama 40-way and 10-stack CRW, made his first 100-way with only 500 jumps, and earned his slot on the 300-way attempt before he had 600 jumps.


You can say he's crude, loud, obnoxious, a thorn in your side, and even that he has terrible breath and farts in elevators, but you CAN'T say Billy's only life is spouting about that organization on this newsgroup.

irrelevant!

irrelevant! How is Billy's accomplishments Irrelevant??? Just another deflection tactic to keep from owning up to supporting a criminal organization, And I'm just talking about the sLyride scam!


All that evidence can't be wrong!!

yay! jeffs here! everyone get out their helmet and crayons!

well im not a skyride fan by any means, but this sport is and always has been rich in moraly questionable behavior. -parabuteo

[airtwardo 7]

~billy vance, dz.com is your life. i'm sorry....

~irrelevant!

1st you say a guy has no life, then you minimise his accomplishments.

What have YOU done in comparison?

List them out for us.


You do make at times, what I would consider to be a sincere attempt at a logical argument...then totally blow any credibility you may have built.


If ya don't like the guy say you don't...DO NOT minimise someone else's skydiving accomplishments EVER.
Stuff like that tells people a lot more about you, than you likely want 'em to know.



My DZ accepts SR tickets, I don't agree with it, but it's not my financial bottom line.

My DZO and I have an agreement, he gives me a great place to jump, I stay out of his business practices.



You contend that your DZ is a great place to jump...that's cool, most DZ's are...go with that.



Do you have an actual financial stake in the SR business?

Why would you so fervently defend a fraudulent business practice that does in fact hurt the sport?


Help me understand.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[davelepka 4]

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would you extend the same warm welcome to a slaver who opened a dz after paying his debt?

Is 'slaver' even a real word? I know what you're trying to say, I've just never heard that word.

Anyway, I do look at holding slaves a bit different than running a Caravan or DC-3 full of blow. We could go on and on about the trickle down effect, and the underapid wrokers growing the cocoa leaves on one end, and the junkies on the other end, but that would be silly. Like you said before, we all have a closet full of clothes built under 'unknown' circumstances.

But if you do choose to run a load of blow, and get caught, then you have to deal with the US legal system before anyone has a chance to have anything to do with you. Once you have repaid your debt to society (as handed down by said legal system) a guy has a chance to turn things around, and have a shot at a straight life.

By the time I came into the story, said DZO was well past his prison time, and well into his second shot, and doing pretty well at it. Yes, he probably used a pile of drug money to get the ball rolling, but he could have easily just kept the cash for himself, he could have lived like a king in one of 50 tropical countries for the rest of his life. Instead he jumped right back into skydiving, and put his money there.

So yeah, I gave the guy a second chance. Do I agree with every action he's ever made? Not in the least, but the judicial system called it even with the guy, and he seemed like he was on the up and up.

It's like I said about Skyride - I don't like what they're doing now, but I don't see that as a death sentence. If it was to stop, and they were square with the legal system, I'd patronize their DZ if they opened one, and operated it under good faith for a period of time.

But right now, with their current and ongoing business practices? I don't know.

I'm the first guy to point out that skydivers aren't gods gift to polite society, but when you have a crew of them fucking over other skydivers, that's a stab at the brotherhood, and just wrong. The skydivers they're fucking over aren't just average jumpers either, it's the selcet few who put their lives into running a DZ, which as we all know is a piss poor investment, and not for the faint of heart.

They're not bringing anything new to the sport, they're not attracting any new jumpers. They step in and snipe people who are actively looking for a DZ already. If these people didn't get intercepted by a Skyride website, they would have located a local DZ site, and made a jump in a one-on-one transaction with the actual DZ. Instead, Skyride grabs them, sells the jump, and takes a cut from the local DZ these people end up jumping at.

The end result is less money for the local DZ from a local customer who made the choice to seek out a DZ on their own.

It's not like Skyride recriuted new business by marketing to new demographics or with new methods that attracted those who previously would not have sought out a DZ. In that case they would have garnered new business, and would be entitled to a cut.

All they did was reach in and a grab existing business out from under the local guy, business that the local guy was entitled to by opening a DZ in the proximity of that customers home town.

It's a straight up mafia type operation. The day that the law catches up with them, be it criminal or civil, whatever your argument may be in favor of Skyride will be proven wrong, and that day will come.

[Jumpdude 0]

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billy vance, dz.com is your life. i'm sorry....

No, it's not. His life is now his wife and his family; skydiving itself has taken a back seat perhaps, but his knowledge and sense of "right v. wrong" is something that he still chooses to advocate on here (however brash it may be at times), considering his close involvement with the consequences of what Skyride did on a smaller scale in the Southeast earlier on.

Each and every time anyone want's to throw out the fact that somehow Skyride's biggest and most vocal opponent has no say because of the fact that Billy may not jump as much as they themselves do currently, or as much as he used to, let me remind them of a few facts which DO give Billy the credibility to speak out - jump numbers within the past month be damned:

Among his accomplishments while in this sport, he has received
the Falcon,
the Double Falcon,
the Eagle,
the Double Eagle,
the 36W Silver Falcon,
the 64W Golden Eagle,
Star Crest Recipient,
Star Crest Soloist,
4-Stack CRW,
8-Stack CCR,
8-Stack CCS,
12FF,
Gold Wings,
PRO 120,
1997 Alabama 40-way RW,
1997 Georgia 64-way RW (with only 400 jumps),
1997 New Jersey 100 way RW,
1999 New Jersey 101 way RW,
1999 Virginia 88-way RW,
2003 Alabama 10-stack CRW,
2005 South Carolina 30 Diamond CRW,
8 separate Deaf World Record skydives,
22 Demos,
Earned a slot on the 300 way World Record attempt but broke his arm a month before they were to begin and gave up his slot.
He is the only person to hold the Alabama 40-way and 10-stack CRW, made his first 100-way with only 500 jumps, and earned his slot on the 300-way attempt before he had 600 jumps.


You can say he's crude, loud, obnoxious, a thorn in your side, and even that he has terrible breath and farts in elevators, but you CAN'T say Billy's only life is spouting about that organization on this newsgroup.

irrelevant!

irrelevant! How is Billy's accomplishments Irrelevant??? Just another deflection tactic to keep from owning up to supporting a criminal organization, And I'm just talking about the sLyride scam!


All that evidence can't be wrong!!

yay! jeffs here! everyone get out their helmet and crayons!

I think I'm going to Wally World and getting a couple of pairs of big floppy shoes and red rubber noses for Lance and Fincher,,, Anyone care to contribute???

Refuse to Lose!!!
Failure is NOT an option!
1800skyrideripoff.com
Nashvilleskydiving.org

[parabuteo 0]

I choose to ingore those rebutals. they make no sense in relation to my comments. and I dont know you, so how can you know more than I think you know, if I've never thought about what you might know?

[lancefrazier 0]

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~billy vance, dz.com is your life. i'm sorry....

~irrelevant!

1st you say a guy has no life, then you minimise his accomplishments.

What have YOU done in comparison?

List them out for us.


You do make at times, what I would consider to be a sincere attempt at a logical argument...then totally blow any credibility you may have built.


If ya don't like the guy say you don't...DO NOT minimise someone else's skydiving accomplishments EVER.
Stuff like that tells people a lot more about you, than you likely want 'em to know.



My DZ accepts SR tickets, I don't agree with it, but it's not my financial bottom line.

My DZO and I have an agreement, he gives me a great place to jump, I stay out of his business practices.



You contend that your DZ is a great place to jump...that's cool, most DZ's are...go with that.



Do you have an actual financial stake in the SR business?

Why would you so fervently defend a fraudulent business practice that does in fact hurt the sport?


Help me understand.

first off, i know exactly who billy vance is. his accomplishments as a skydiver proceed him.
he's way ahead of me as a jumper and a dz.com poster.

i've really accomplished nothing in life, as you can tell by my midnight presence on dz.com(what's your excuse?).

my arguments are pretty logical, really. i'm not seeking cred on dz.com, trust me.

"
If ya don't like the guy say you don't...DO NOT minimise someone else's skydiving accomplishments EVER. "
-struck a nerve, huh?

i could care less what people know about me, i'm a pretty open book.

"My DZO and I have an agreement, he gives me a great place to jump, I stay out of his business practices. "
-he can do that in part from the revenues generated by his affiliation with 1800skyride, i'd venture.

i'm sure he feels super lucky that you decided to let him run HIS business!

"Do you have an actual financial stake in the SR business? "
-absolutely! i'm the janitor at asc!

"Why would you so fervently defend a fraudulent business practice that does in fact hurt the sport? "
-i defend myself, my friends and my dz.

well im not a skyride fan by any means, but this sport is and always has been rich in moraly questionable behavior. -parabuteo

[johndh1 0]

Lance, you haven't "shown me what it's all about," thanks for agreeing with me with "absolutely correct."

Your certainty that I "know what it's all about" concerning drug funded dz's is duly noted - an incorrect presumption on your part, and a gossip-based presumption on mine as to what really went on - however, I know what I have heard for a long time, and I know what I would testify to in court as first-hand knowledge are two different things. MY team didn't bring it up (why must we always pick sides?!) - and you misread my italics. All I was saying is that those guys supposedly did what they did (acquitted, or deceased, or whatever), and I was not part of the jury on that; lets keep on topic as to what YOUR guys are doing without remorse, even to this day.

Gift certificates these days usually are refundable in the same time-zone as which they were purchased, usually the company that would redeem was located there, anyway. N'est Pas?

"trust me buddy boy..."

Did you pull me over in the dog-car on "Dumb and Dumber?" Drink it, Buddy-Boy. The Kool-Aid, would you like grape or cherry?

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"For once, I am at a loss for words... "
-ggod, get some sleep!

I will. And tomorrow I will shred Beaver Creek. Thanks for the Sweet Dreams. One day, you'll probably be saying to me around the fire, "I just didn't realize what all was going on?" and I'll say, "There, there - you were young and dumb..."

Been there, done that.

Roll Tide Roll

[lancefrazier 0]

I think I'm going to Wally World and getting a couple of pairs of big floppy shoes and red rubber noses for Lance and Fincher,,, Anyone care to contribute???

[popsjumper 2]

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i'd estimate 95% of america fits this qualification, but hey, thanks for taking time from all YOUR efforts to combat injustices in the world to drop in...

Yes, I'd estimate that those who are included in the percentage would drastically over-estimate that percentage to make themselves feel better about being part of the problem.

They trained you well....deny, deny, deny.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Jumpdude 0]

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I think I'm going to Wally World and getting a couple of pairs of big floppy shoes and red rubber noses for Lance and Fincher,,, Anyone care to contribute???

so, skyride represents the devil to you, but walmart is is your shopping venue of choice?

i bet you live in some shitty little town that walmart has dislodged all the local retailers from.

that's voting with you wallet!

Ok then, I'll redirect and go to Ambercrombie so I can get you the shoes and noses with a higher level of style

Refuse to Lose!!!
Failure is NOT an option!
1800skyrideripoff.com
Nashvilleskydiving.org

[Jumpdude 0]

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i'd estimate 95% of america fits this qualification, but hey, thanks for taking time from all YOUR efforts to combat injustices in the world to drop in...

Yes, I'd estimate that those who are included in the percentage would drastically over-estimate that percentage to make themselves feel better about being part of the problem.

They trained you well....deny, deny, deny.

Well said!!

Refuse to Lose!!!
Failure is NOT an option!
1800skyrideripoff.com
Nashvilleskydiving.org

[airtwardo 7]

i could care less what people know about me, i'm a pretty open book.

[parabuteo 0]

lancefrazier it appears you are right about picking a side. Unfortuneatly I have to quote Val Kilmer. "My hypocrisy only goes so far"

Johndh1 has chosen just to start attacking people again and take this thread back to a irrational place. A place where multiple view points cant be discussed. NO! its all satan skyride. If you dont agree 100 percent then you are wrong in every aspect. Very narrow minded johndh1.....

I am interested in this beaver creek though? sounds fun. Is that like the bunny ranch? I'd like to shred that!!!

[lancefrazier 0]

dave,

slaver is a word, it means what it sounds like.

you make a logical, organized argument. well done.
i don't begrudge you your position on drug trafficking, or skyride for that matter.

lance

well im not a skyride fan by any means, but this sport is and always has been rich in moraly questionable behavior. -parabuteo

[johndh1 0]

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I think I'm going to Wally World and getting a couple of pairs of big floppy shoes and red rubber noses for Lance and Fincher,,, Anyone care to contribute???

so, skyride represents the devil to you, but walmart is is your shopping venue of choice?

i bet you live in some shitty little town that walmart has dislodged all the local retailers from.

that's voting with you wallet!

[lancefrazier 0]

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Lance, you haven't "shown me what it's all about," thanks for agreeing with me with "absolutely correct."

Your certainty that I "know what it's all about" concerning drug funded dz's is duly noted - an incorrect presumption on your part, and a gossip-based presumption on mine as to what really went on - however, I know what I have heard for a long time, and I know what I would testify to in court as first-hand knowledge are two different things. MY team didn't bring it up (why must we always pick sides?!) - and you misread my italics. All I was saying is that those guys supposedly did what they did (acquitted, or deceased, or whatever), and I was not part of the jury on that; lets keep on topic as to what YOUR guys are doing without remorse, even to this day.

Gift certificates these days usually are refundable in the same time-zone as which they were purchased, usually the company that would redeem was located there, anyway. N'est Pas?

"trust me buddy boy..."

Did you pull me over in the dog-car on "Dumb and Dumber?" Drink it, Buddy-Boy. The Kool-Aid, would you like grape or cherry?

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"For once, I am at a loss for words... "
-ggod, get some sleep!

I will. And tomorrow I will shred Beaver Creek. Thanks for the Sweet Dreams. One day, you'll probably be saying to me around the fire, "I just didn't realize what all was going on?" and I'll say, "There, there - you were young and dumb..."

Been there, done that.

sure thing, john...

well im not a skyride fan by any means, but this sport is and always has been rich in moraly questionable behavior. -parabuteo

[lancefrazier 0]

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i'd estimate 95% of america fits this qualification, but hey, thanks for taking time from all YOUR efforts to combat injustices in the world to drop in...

Yes, I'd estimate that those who are included in the percentage would drastically over-estimate that percentage to make themselves feel better about being part of the problem.

They trained you well....deny, deny, deny.

who trained me, andy? do you think there's a skyride indoc process or something. geez...

well im not a skyride fan by any means, but this sport is and always has been rich in moraly questionable behavior. -parabuteo

[parabuteo 0]

I second that dave. I enjoyed your participation and ability not too attack in a ignorant way.

Lancefrazier....you are quite a card. very fun!

as for some others......wellllll.......no comment

I guess im going to maintain my position on the fence. When it comes to skydiving immorality...I'd say skyride got it honest. lol

[lancefrazier 0]

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i could care less what people know about me, i'm a pretty open book.

More than you'll ever know Skippy.

[lancefrazier 0]

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I think I'm going to Wally World and getting a couple of pairs of big floppy shoes and red rubber noses for Lance and Fincher,,, Anyone care to contribute???

so, skyride represents the devil to you, but walmart is is your shopping venue of choice?

i bet you live in some shitty little town that walmart has dislodged all the local retailers from.

that's voting with you wallet!

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In your toxic and histrionic state, you've mixed responses to posts - I was the one who referred to Butler-hole/Cockroachy as Santa/Satan earlier on, in jest; however, I do live in a shitty little town where the only chain-stores here are a Subway, a Starbuck's, and a ColdStoneCreameries. We do, however, have a couple thousand acres of good ski terrain. You'd be fortunate to relocate here, and leave the Nashville/Cedartown/Phoenix area behind...since they are in such close proximity.

john, put the bong down, broooooo.

well im not a skyride fan by any means, but this sport is and always has been rich in moraly questionable behavior. -parabuteo