AFF or SL

[Ron 10]

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so that's why I asked. Even if you screw up where the level horizon is, you can't be that far off, can you? Whereas a 10k freefall can involve significant wind drift and looking 10-20degrees off vertical at 15 will cause significant error.

Learning the proper may to spot at 4 is easier...But if you don't do it you will not be able to spot from 10.

And in my student program as soon as the SL was gone they were spotting. It started with them giving me the commands and me giving them to the pilot...Then them giving them to the pilot and me conferming them...To finnaly they were spotting at altitude on their own....For the last dive with me I told them if they spotted me off, I'd fail them (I was kidding and they knew it).

But I made it a large part of a students needed skills...Canopy control also..If you could not stand up, I would have a hard time letting you continue till the problem is fixed. How can someone have 500 jumps and not be able to stand up?

Don't get me started on packing....Anyone that learned from me can pack.

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The part I don't like is that if you screw up and have some sort of problem on a 3500, you don't have very much time to fix it, and no seasoned AFF-I backing you up.

You have plenty of time to fix it....more than you need.

The AFF I is not there to skydive for you. Do you know the SL program? You don't get to go to freefall till you have good exits.

I find it worse to take a guy and put him into freefall without a sure fire no fail deployment method till they prove they can.

See Static line they WILL have a deployment, AFF you are expecting them to pull, or you are betting that someone else will pull.

SL they WILL be mechanicly deployed till they show they can deploy.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 2,990]

>The part I don't like is that if you screw up and have some sort of
>problem on a 3500, you don't have very much time to fix it . . .

You have as much time as you have if you open at 4500 in freefall.

>and no seasoned AFF-I backing you up.

AFF-I's can do nothing for you once your canopy is open enough to start generating drag - and direct bag SL systems virtually ensure the canopy gets to that point. (If it doesn't, you don't separate from the plane, and you have a lot of time to deal with it.)

There's a reason that the military uses SL - it's the most reliable way to get people out of an airplane safely. As others have mentioned, it has some pluses and minuses as a means of instruction. But if I had to get people of questionable skill out of an airplane alive, I'd definitely go with direct bag SL.

[kelpdiver 2]

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>The part I don't like is that if you screw up and have some sort of
>problem on a 3500, you don't have very much time to fix it . . .

You have as much time as you have if you open at 4500 in freefall.

Aye, though the AFF student should be pulling 5 seconds higher, and most of the time is in a stable position thanks to the two AFF-Is. If the dive went badly and the student was on his own, he is instructed to pull immediately.

[Orange1 0]

I'm doing S/L progression at a small DZ... considered switching to AFF to speed things up at one stage but have decided that the slower progression actually works better for me. I'm now at the stage where I'm reasonably comfortable exiting and flying the canopy and feel more able to start concentrating more on freefall skills and tasks, because I don't have too much to deal with all at once.
I also like the small DZ because with an uncrowded sky and landing area you have a bit more leeway to make small errors in where you fly/land than with a big one...more confidence for learning without feeling you are stuffing everyone else up.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[JonBonGraham 0]

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Aye, though the AFF student should be pulling 5 seconds higher, and most of the time is in a stable position thanks to the two AFF-Is. If the dive went badly and the student was on his own, he is instructed to pull immediately.

Yes, the student is instructed to pull immediately, but students do not always do as they are told. Have you ever seen the Tom Lutz AFF video? If not, go to skydivingmovies.com and have a look. The majority of student "horror stories" I've heard so far have all been about AFF, and it's easy to see why! I really like the fact that it's not an information overload with SL. In the UK, a SL student is not allowed to be introduced to more than one new thing to do on any jump (don't know if this would include spotting).

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I feel even If I could spot better no one is going to listen to what a 60 jump chump says, only thing i'm going to get is " GO GO GO GO "

Hell, I know how to spot and have 3,000 jumps and I get yelled at...Let em yell.

Ron, you have the luxury of a "let them yell" attitude because you have 3,000 jumps and can spot.

I had exactly what this guy's talking about not so long ago - I think it was at the 60-65 jump mark, I'd done my spotting and got my B-licence and all that dross, and was doing a fair few solos (pulling high, playing with canopy) so I was always first out and started off getting out when the green-light came on. Well, our chief instructor wasn't happy - I kept landing off as it turns out the pilot always put the green light on very early (I think 1/2 a mile or a mile or something of that order) so he told me to wait and check the spot and get out when I'm happy.
So the next lift I do check the spot before getting out and, hey-presto, we're miles short of the dropzone. Me and a guy with in excess of 4,000 jumps (I'm pretty sure) have our heads stuck out the door, he gives me a look of "when you're ready" and after no longer than 3 seconds some of the four-way groups behind me (between 100-500 jumps each) are on my back with their "c'mon, the green lights on, go already!" but I leave it for a while and land on the DZ for the first time in a half-dozen jumps - not a very popular decision. I was a little annoyed!
Anyway, I wish there were more people on the DZ with your attitude (particularly those skygods who, from the inside of a plane, obviously know more about the spot than the guy with his head stuck out the door because they have more jump numbers than him!). While I can adopt a "let 'em yell" attitude, I would just be percieved as a cocky 70-odd jump wonder, which isn't a label I wanna give myself!

Durham University Freefall Club

Grounds For Divorce website (band I'm in)

[Ron 10]

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Ron, you have the luxury of a "let them yell" attitude because you have 3,000 jumps and can spot.

I understand I have more "juice"....But to be honest it does not matter.

I have guys with 50 jumps and 5000 jumps yelling at me. (More 50's than 5000's to be honest.)

But the thing is simply this...Its your life. I'd rather get yelled at than land off.

The amazing thing about planes is they can do these things called "Go Arounds" You can't.

So the next time some dude is yelling at you to go...Let him take your slot and get out.

Don't yell, just step aside and let them go. Make sure you are really not gonna make it back, or they will claim you are a moron...But if they do gladley tell them that the extra time they took getting out and going...Made the spot OK.

Don't let others write checks with your body.

The BEST method to prevent this....?

REALLY learn to spot, become good at it. After a while people will know you have a clue and will shut up.

If I see a guy looking out and the spot is bad...I tend to tell the folks it is fucked...If its good I tend to nicely tell the guy he will be fine.

Planning on pulling high is a sign of a bad spot. Pulling high should be used only to unfuck a bad spot.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[JonBonGraham 0]

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So the next time some dude is yelling at you to go...Let him take your slot and get out.

Ah... good idea. Only problem is, exit order is set on the ground prior to boarding, flat groups small-large, freefly small-large, then the rest dpending what they're doing. So I'd probably get a bit of a b***ocking from the CCI for changing the exit order to let a four-way group go out before me, but don't think letting another solo/same-size group go would be a proplem. If it happens again, I'll talk to him.
Thanks for the advice!

Durham University Freefall Club

Grounds For Divorce website (band I'm in)

[kelpdiver 2]

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The majority of student "horror stories" I've heard so far have all been about AFF, and it's easy to see why!

Well, that's not too surprising. A first jump static line student has only a couple things to do right and the canopy is open, and the jumper is then quickly out of view as the instructor goes to the next one. But I've gone to skydivingmovies and see many of the examples of scary SL exits. Only 5 seconds long, but thinking of an entanglement 2000ft lower than my AFF pulls...makes me happy with my choice. (I suspect most people who complete are happy with whichever they took)

The AFF-1 student has more tasks and time to scare the crap out of the instructors. He can hose the exit (false count or hesitation or hopping), refuse to arch, go fetal, grab the AFF-I's altimeter instead of the PC, ... or all of them on the same jump. The instructors have to stay along until pull time. They can even get killed by the student, which would be much harder for the static line guy to do.

[adamsr 0]

I don't really agree that the SL student doesn't have much to do, all of the malfunction training is the same, the student is on their own with AFF or SL at that point, plus the exit it the most critical part of the dive, that the student has to get right, or things can get messy.
There have been quite a few injuries or fatalities due to bad SL exits, causing entanglements, whereas with AFF a bad exit can be sorted out by the 2 instructors.

I personally did SL and enjoyed every minute, was qualified in 28 jumps and believe the skills i picked up during my training have helped me as a skydiver. canopy control and spotting being 2 major skills. in 250 jumps i have never landed off, and on a couple of occasaions been the only person/group from the whole load that has made the dz. this is partly due to luck, spotting, and even realising that the spot is crap in freefalland adjusting opening height so i make the field.

In my opinion it is down to the person which route they take. i personally chose SL because of money and that was the main teaching method at my home dz. on student at my dz however got stuck on 5-sec delays (did about 30 of them) before switching to AFF and qualifying within 3 days

Both AFF and SL get you to the same point in the end, just down to the individual which system works best.

[mjosparky 4]

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The majority of student "horror stories" I've heard so far have all been about AFF, and it's easy to see why!

Well, that's not too surprising. A first jump static line student has only a couple things to do right and the canopy is open, and the jumper is then quickly out of view as the instructor goes to the next one. But I've gone to skydivingmovies and see many of the examples of scary SL exits. Only 5 seconds long, but thinking of an entanglement 2000ft lower than my AFF pulls...makes me happy with my choice. (I suspect most people who complete are happy with whichever they took)

The AFF-1 student has more tasks and time to scare the crap out of the instructors. He can hose the exit (false count or hesitation or hopping), refuse to arch, go fetal, grab the AFF-I's altimeter instead of the PC, ... or all of them on the same jump. The instructors have to stay along until pull time. They can even get killed by the student, which would be much harder for the static line guy to do.

Unless you have gone through S/L training or have taught S/L there is a good chance you have no idea what a S/L student has to do or when they have to do it.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Orange1 0]

admittedly... i'ma newbie and haven't seen the videos you mention ... but i have had a couple of awful exits (we jump out of a small cessna and i had one where i got spun 360 degrees by the propwash) but the worst result has always been line twists, easy enough to get out of... what were the factors involved in these 'scary' exits?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Ron 10]

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what were the factors involved in these 'scary' exits?

For evey scary SL exit, I can sho you a scary situation with AFF.

No program is perfect and both can teach you to skydive or kill you.

I would send my kids SL.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[sfzombie13 324]

i went through sl training in 98. jump # 4, no shit there i was, still ahd my prcp handle in hand, suspension lines from my toes to my wrists, cigarette roll overhead, thinking this is it. in the amount of time it took to look at my altimeter, the lines came away from it, canopy caught some air and inflated at about 1000'. when i got on the ground, i was all proud i had a good emergency recovery. when the instructor got down, he ran over to me and told me that i'd scared the shit outta him. i told him that he shoulda been where i was. we had a smoke to calm our nerves, and went up again. i had to so that i didn't have to dwell on it til the next w/e and maybe never jump again.
as far as the topic of the post, i have excellent canopy control, hit the peas about three times in my last 15 jumps, and only one time with a square have i not stood up(went to one knee on the mal i talked about). i can spot so-so(been three years since i was in the air in a cessna). i jumped at a very small dz, and learned how to pack over beer after jumping all day(we always unpacked them at the end of the night). i was packing my own canopy after jump #12, talk about fun(the rigger was always watching over my shoulder). just my $.02

_________________________________________
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes

[itsdave 0]

I'm afraid you're all barking up the wrong tree As a skint university student I made the obvious decision to go for the cheaper (and way more relaxed) option - you gotta earn it , don't buy it!

[Mindcake 0]

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I still believe that S/L gives a more well rounded graduate. You have more canopy time, more exits, your not afraid to get out low, you have more opportunity to learn spotting (a very lost art), you HAVE done it on your own which is a goal for many.

But, I "grew up" on T10's and ParaCommanders.

Ok except for the T10/ParaCommander part....Exactly what he said

Don´t belive the hype

[Avion 0]

I've got 5 hours in the tunnel, seen many first timers and unstable AFF students.

I did one tandem, got to practice some turns but forgot about flaring, and went through AFF ground school, waiting for good weather to jump.

My obviously pre-speaking rights reply is...

I like to see a progression consisting of:

At least one tandem, 3 at most (student does turns and flares),

if student wants to continue,

At least 10 mins in the tunnel where student gets stable, arm turns, and prehaps some practice pulls.

Then a modified AFF course to accomodate skills learned thus far.

Cheers

Oh yea, spoting, what's spotting

I had to read about that in a book. Do they still use wind drift indicators, or call the weather station and use the wind reports with the calculations?

[kelpdiver 2]

Perris (and I suspect Elsinore, and many DZs near the growing number of tunnels) has a suggested session before the release dive (AFF 3 or 4)

[livendive 8]

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I'm really suprised SL and AFF havent been combined into a 12-14 jump course that would allow one to hone canopy and freefall skills.

I know of at least one such program that does IAD to 10-second delays followed by single-JM AFF.

If I was building my own student program, I would do 1 or 2 tandems, 4 IAD's (3 practice pulls and one good clear & pull), and then single-JM AFF.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[billvon 2,990]

>If I was building my own student program, I would do 1 or 2 tandems, 4
>IAD's (3 practice pulls and one good clear & pull), and then single-JM AFF.

Problem with that is that you may eventually come to the conclusion that a clear and pull is a lot safer with two AFF-JM's hanging on - and the student gets a lot more feedback on the jump.

[livendive 8]

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>If I was building my own student program, I would do 1 or 2 tandems, 4
>IAD's (3 practice pulls and one good clear & pull), and then single-JM AFF.

Problem with that is that you may eventually come to the conclusion that a clear and pull is a lot safer with two AFF-JM's hanging on - and the student gets a lot more feedback on the jump.

Presumably you've reached that conclusion? Why? I'm thinking that if the launch funnels, it would suck to have the student throw at 3-5 seconds before the JM's have had a chance to straighten it out. I'll agree that it has less of a chance of going to shit with a JM or two hanging on, but the potential consequences of them pulling unstable increase dramatically with the extra bodies.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[billvon 2,990]

>Presumably you've reached that conclusion? Why?

Cause I've done a lot of AFF level 1's and a lot of SL students. When they go well, both are great. But when the shit hits the fan, the student is a lot more likely to get a halfway stable deployment with AFF-JM's in the vicinity.

Not to say such a hybrid system can't work, but you may end up deciding that it's not worth the slight additional risk.

[bodypilot1 0]

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If I was building my own student program, I would do 1 or 2 tandems, 4 IAD's (3 practice pulls and one good clear & pull), and then single-JM AFF.

My private program that I run, with great success, has been 2 working tandems, ground school and 4-5 single Instructor jumps.
I use the yellow student cards the USPA supplies, along with using their guidelines for the training and sometimes modify the training for each students capabilities.
Not every student learns the same, some learn faster, or are "naturals" in the air.

Sadly enough after working at different DZ's over the many year, I have found some that just "milk" the student for every jump in the program, when they clearly could be released from an AFF instructors supervision to continue the progression on the card by doing jumps with a coach and pay considerably less.

Keepin' it safe!
Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[billvon 2,990]

>I have found some that just "milk" the student for every jump in the program . . .

It was always our default that everyone goes through all eight jumps in our program. The only people we'd make exceptions for were people with prior experience, whether in a wind tunnel, skydiving, military jumping etc. The ones that advanced quickly would get basic RW training thrown in at the end (along with the normal TLO's of course.) We didn't want to create a situation where:

1. Someone who took eight jumps to graduate was considered a 'dunce'

2. We were signing people off to self-supervise with a total of four jumps and four minutes of freefall time.

[bodypilot1 0]

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The ones that advanced quickly would get basic RW training thrown in at the end (along with the normal TLO's of course.)

That's a great option.

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We didn't want to create a situation where:

1. Someone who took eight jumps to graduate was considered a 'dunce'

Unfortunatly I have seen people with hundreds of jumps that are still considered to be a dunce.


Keepin' it safe!
Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[martin-o 0]

I find it interesting that one issue is left untouched. Which program (S/L or AFF) has the best survival rate. I can agree that a student getting their license after S/L is probably the slightly better skydiver, but I think the number one student killer is a horse shoe mal after a messy exit in the S/L program. A problem close to non existing in AFF. I'm pretty sure your odds for surviving as a student is better with AFF.