half-a-greek 0 #1 December 16, 2009 I was just thinking about this and I decided to see what the masses think. I currently fly a Triathlon 175 I'm loaded at about 1.32 with 83 jumps under my belt. What do you think about me trading that up for a Stiletto 150? I would be loaded at about 1.5 Thoughts? opinions? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #2 December 16, 2009 Why do you want to downsize? Why do you want to fly a Stiletto? Why do you want to do those things now?"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LyraM45 0 #3 December 16, 2009 QuoteI was just thinking about this and I decided to see what the masses think. I currently fly a Triathlon 175 I'm loaded at about 1.32 with 83 jumps under my belt. What do you think about me trading that up for a Stiletto 150? I would be loaded at about 1.5 Thoughts? opinions? Is this for real or are you just taking the piss?Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
half-a-greek 0 #4 December 16, 2009 one day I want to learn how to swoop, one day I want to free fly and go head down and all that stuff... but that day isn't now. A reason I thought of stiletto because it seems like a lesser of the high performance canopies (I honestly don't know though), and after looking around, I've noticed they come at a decent second hand price. I know I'm not ready to downsize... but I was just pondering the question and I thought I'd throw it out here, (not with much seriousness). I guess one legit question I do have is, when is a person ready to fly a stiletto? or downsize to a canopy of that caliber? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GLIDEANGLE 1 #5 December 16, 2009 Recently discussed. I would tell you the same things I told someone else with damn near the same question. See my reply here: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3728684#3728684The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #6 December 16, 2009 I think you should talk to your local instructors that know you. Just going off of the numbers you have you should either stay with what you have for another 300 jumps or upsize to 190 or 200 sqft canopy. Downsizing and changing to a higher performance canopy at the same time is generally not a good idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GLIDEANGLE 1 #7 December 16, 2009 Here is another thread that is extremely relevant to your question. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3718663#3718663The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrbiceps 0 #8 December 16, 2009 I saw a friend of mine make a mistake after a recent downsize and have a high speed impact. His pelvis was in 7 pieces, Not to mention his 2 broken femurs. The doctors had to fillet his bum cheeks like a fish in order to get at his shattered pelvis and try to screw it all back together. If it hadnt rained the day before they say he would be dead. Post your thread again when u have 500 jumps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #9 December 16, 2009 Do you have an organ donor card? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnDeere 0 #10 December 16, 2009 Quote Do you have an organ donor card? Or life insurance? If you need my info to put on your policy I would be glad to be on there!Nothing opens like a Deere! You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
half-a-greek 0 #11 December 16, 2009 Quote Quote I was just thinking about this and I decided to see what the masses think. I currently fly a Triathlon 175 I'm loaded at about 1.32 with 83 jumps under my belt. What do you think about me trading that up for a Stiletto 150? I would be loaded at about 1.5 Thoughts? opinions? Is this for real or are you just taking the piss? Mostly piss, with just a touch of for real. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #12 December 16, 2009 Quote Mostly piss, with just a touch of for real. Here is the way that the process works. 1- You make 100 jumps (which means 100 landings). You think that you are stellar. 2- You discuss downsizing with people at your dz who know your skill level. They are against the idea. 3- You come online and discuss it. Same response. 4- You approach it light-heartedly and add some comments in the vein of "additional information" that we can all discuss. Perhaps we are not aware. 5- Still no buyers. 6- You discuss your Mad Skillz. 7- We add you to the list of people in the ongoing Mad Skillz thread and wait for you to repost about your broken ankle in another thread. Do a search for Mad Skillz. See if it sounds familiar. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tetra316 0 #13 December 16, 2009 Quoteone day I want to learn how to swoop, one day I want to free fly and go head down and all that stuff... but that day isn't now. A reason I thought of stiletto because it seems like a lesser of the high performance canopies (I honestly don't know though), and after looking around, I've noticed they come at a decent second hand price. I know I'm not ready to downsize... but I was just pondering the question and I thought I'd throw it out here, (not with much seriousness). I guess one legit question I do have is, when is a person ready to fly a stiletto? or downsize to a canopy of that caliber? Points to consider: 1. Assuming all your jumps have been under your current canopy you hardly know how to fly it. It takes several hundred jumps on a single wing to really understand how it flys and how to max it out. 2. If you want to swoop someday a Stilleto is one of the worst canopies to jump. It has a very short recovery arc which means you have to turn very low to plane out properly. 3. At your loading you are an accident waiting to happen. Check out Brian Germains wingloading chart. That is the very max you should be at. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #14 December 16, 2009 Quoteone day I want to learn how to swoop, one day I want to free fly and go head down and all that stuff... but that day isn't now. A reason I thought of stiletto because it seems like a lesser of the high performance canopies (I honestly don't know though), and after looking around, I've noticed they come at a decent second hand price. The Stiletto is the most responsive canopy PD has ever made. PD made all of the following canopies (Velocity, Katana) less sensitive to toggle input because John LeBlanc observed jumpers having problems with roll axis stability when landing their Stilettos. Small control inputs will quickly put the canopy into a steep dive that is not recoverable at low altitudes whether or not that's what you intend. Here's a Stiletto 150 fatality with just a 1.2 wing loading and 480 jumps: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3709212 The control sensitivity (especially with the brakes stowed) also makes the Stiletto more likely to spin up if you don't stay level during opening and deal with any problems immediately. Quote I guess one legit question I do have is, when is a person ready to fly a stiletto? or downsize to a canopy of that caliber? At least 300 jumps, 100 jumps per .1 pounds of wingloading, enough jumps on the same size canopy in a less aggressive planform to have be comfortable with all of the usual things (flat turns, flare turns, turns after plane-out, actually turning 90 degrees at 50 feet so the first time you do that isn't in an emergency, accelerated landings, land up and down-hill, land cross-wind and down-wind, consistent landings in 10 meters) at the same canopy size which probably takes 50-100 jumps. 500 jumps would be a fine time to start with a Stiletto at 1.5 pounds per square foot if you don't choose something else for longer recovery arc length. I had 600 jumps when I got my Stiletto (the last 200 under another elliptical a size bigger) and the thing didn't always go in a straight line on landing. Bruised my heels enough that it hurt to walk for months. Spent the next 400 or 500 jumps learning how to fly it well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #15 December 16, 2009 I’ll repeat the questions Krissane asked you. This is not meant as a flame or an attempt to talk down to you. It is a serious attempt to get you to think about what you are doing. Why do you want to downsize? Why do you want to fly a Stiletto? Why do you want to do those things now? At 80+ jumps, if your profile is right, you have no business going to a Stiletto 150. You are pushing it jumping a 175 Triathlon. Your reserve, which is an old design, is loaded 30 lb. over MOW and might get real interesting if the shit hits the fan. Someone suggested upsizing and you would be smart to try that. Anything you are going to learn about swooping on a 150 you can learn on a 200 and probably learn it faster. You are less likely to be in a constant struggle for survival. Like I said, not meant to flame just try to prevent the pain. Sparky P.S. Who ever sold you that gear needs a talking to. My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sparkie 0 #16 December 16, 2009 Quoteone day I want to learn how to swoop, one day I want to free fly and go head down and all that stuff... but that day isn't now. A reason I thought of stiletto because it seems like a lesser of the high performance canopies (I honestly don't know though), and after looking around, I've noticed they come at a decent second hand price. I know I'm not ready to downsize... but I was just pondering the question and I thought I'd throw it out here, (not with much seriousness). I guess one legit question I do have is, when is a person ready to fly a stiletto? or downsize to a canopy of that caliber? For swooping the stilletto is not a good choice. get a sabre2 or similar. Fully elliptical canopies are much more responsive than your current canopy. That presents challenges on landing and openings that you are nowhere near ready for. Get into swooping AFTER a couple hunderd jumps! with the aid of a coach. IMHO 1,3 at your current jump nr is high, 1,5 would be an accident waiting to happen. It can be tempting to get to the hp canopies with a cool wingload as fast as possible, but in the end you either get yourself killed or hurt, or at best you dont fly the canopy to is full potential because you dont have the experience/skill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #17 December 16, 2009 Quote IMHO 1,3 at your current jump nr is high, 1,5 would be an accident waiting to happen. 1.3 is an accident waiting to happen. Into the wind in a wide-open grassy field it's not a big deal. At dusk with a low turn to avoid unseen power lines to a down-wind landing on asphalt (think about what happens on the sunset load when the cute chicks flash the pilot for extra altitude and some one in your group gets hypoxic and gets their foot caught on the seatbelt so you take forever to climb out and have a long spot) it's a huge deal. Things seem to happen much faster, you may not stay flat enough in the turn to avoid a painful impact, and you won't get away with running out a landing where you didn't flare all the way. Either you've made lots of turns to avoid obstacles up, down, and cross-wind and know what it's like to deal with (in which case you have bad judgement and shouldn't be jumping a smaller canopy) or haven't (in which case you don't have the experience needed to decide for yourself). I said nothing because after people have been to the orthopaedic surgeon I've only seen one return with no morgue visits (people wise up) and most people only break without dieing at that wing loading. A jumper's first broken bone is an important learning experience which prevents more serious harm. Replacing that experience with something worse won't be good for the future of skydiving. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chubba 0 #18 December 16, 2009 You should UPSIZE, get something closer to 1.0 for next 100 jumps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeatlast 0 #19 December 16, 2009 Quote I currently fly a Triathlon 175 I'm loaded at about 1.32 with 83 jumps under my belt. What do you think about me trading that up for a Stiletto 150? I would be loaded at about 1.5 Thoughts? opinions? Your wingloading is higher than mine ... I do not fly a canopy that is as responsive as a stiletto - even though i have almost 6 times the number of jumps that you have. I have approx 500 jumps including BASE jumps and i would seriously suggest that you listen to the others and consider UPSIZING for at least 100+ jumps - keep your triathlon in the cupboard and get something nice in the 190 - 210 range that is fun but will not punish you when you make a mistake ... I realise that this may present problems if your container is already a tight fit for your current canopy but it's worth listening to everyone that has already posted here. Jumping within your limits can and will be challenging enough - consider your first off DZ landing with powerlines / roads / cars / low light etc etc - it will be difficult enough on a canopy that you can handle and that gives you more time to assess the situation and make your decision - on a highly loaded, responsive canopy that is BEYOND your current capability it is a recipe for disaster ... Seriously find an instructor who knows you and who is considered 'responsible' speak with them and LISTEN to their answers ... A stiletto would be madness - and is certainly not recommended below 500 jumps - especially at a 1.5+ wingloading ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #20 December 16, 2009 If you would, let me suggest something fun to try. You will enjoy this. Call up PD and demo a Storm 190. Yes, a 190. I think you'll find that the 190 is more fun to fly then your Tri 175. If you demo it and you don't like it, then you're only out a little bit of coin and a little bit of time. That and you expanded your experience a little. Then, check out the canopy coaches list in the Swooping forum, find one close to you and see what you can learn. You'll have fun doing that!--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
timmyfitz 0 #21 December 16, 2009 QuoteI was just thinking about this and I decided to see what the masses think. I currently fly a Triathlon 175 I'm loaded at about 1.32 with 83 jumps under my belt. What do you think about me trading that up for a Stiletto 150? I would be loaded at about 1.5 Thoughts? opinions? According to the Stiletto wing loading chart on the PD website, if you were to jump a 150 at your current weight that would put you in the expert category. I have a feeling you knew the answer before you posted and are just trolling. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,534 #22 December 16, 2009 Dave is a good person to listen to. He's been where you are, done (effectively) what you're considering, and realizes what a mistake it was in his progression towards being a competitive swooper. If you really are interested in swooping, listening to someone who studies and specializes in just that, rather than someone who just swoops as best he can at the end of the "real" jump is the way to go. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimmytavino 16 #23 December 16, 2009 "they come at a decent second hand price...." ever wonder WHY??? low price can sometimes = low demand.... i.e. there are better choices out there... go slower.....(in downsize progression ) ... go further...go longer... NOT in your swoop... but in your skydiving career... jt A 3914 nscr 1817 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,068 #24 December 16, 2009 >What do you think about me trading that up for a Stiletto 150? First, make sure you can fly the Triathalon. Land it upwind, crosswind, downwind, uphill, downhill. Land in a 10 meter circle 10 times out of 10. Flat turn it 180 degrees at 100 feet, and flare turn it 45 degrees when you are landing it. It will probably take you 50-100 jumps to accomplish all that consistently. Once you can do all that, switch to a Safire2 169. You will notice a huge change in performance (more flare, more glide, more speed) and you'll have to take a bunch of jumps to get used to that one. Do all the same things on your new canopy, and if you have any trouble, get coaching. (Coaching is a big help even if you don't have any problems.) This will take 100-200 jumps. From there, downsize to a Safire2 149. It's a much safer canopy to learn swooping on, since its recovery arc is not as absurdly short as the Stiletto's is. You'll be happier overall. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,523 #25 December 16, 2009 Quote....Once you can do all that, switch to a Safire2 169. You will notice a huge change in performance (more flare, more glide, more speed) and you'll have to take a bunch of jumps to get used to that one.... ...From there, downsize to a Safire2 149. It's a much safer canopy to learn swooping on... Serious question - Assuming all advice that I didn't include is followed Is it better to downsize on a semi-elliptical then switch to an elliptical, or would it be better to switch to a bigger elliptical, then downsize on it? For example, staying on the Safire down to a certain size, then switching to a Crossfire, or switching to a Crossfire 169, then going to smaller XFires."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
