Banning swooping? (was: Fatality Canopy Piloting World Cup)

[LetsGoOutside 0]

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In the spirit of trying to learn from this, and assuming that altitude has a part to play in these incidents, is there a rule of thumb for how to change an initiation altitude when one goes from, say, a DZ near sea level to one at 5,000'ish (such as Mile-Hi or JSC).

For example, would you add a certain percentage of your MSL initiation altitude and then work down from there? (eg. 700' at MSL becomes 700' + 50% at 5,000' MSL = 1050')

I know actual numbers will vary, but I'm interested in the approach people would take for their first few jumps at such a radically different density altitude.

Yeah, basically. The same goes for a hot vs cold day. My turns start about 100' higher in the middle of Summer than the start or close of a season at the same DZ. Neptunes are handy for this, as atmosphere is taken into consideration when they calculate MSL. It's not entirely precise, but when my Neptune is reporting a MSL 200' higher than the reality because of the atmosphere and temperature, I make sure to start that first swoop of the day cautiously high.

[LetsGoOutside 0]

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Here's where to draw the line.

A swoop is a controlled maneuver.

Perfect way to put it.

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I am curious though. Do the majority of swooping incidents happen because the initial spiral to speed up is too low, or is it that the person misjudges his recovery arc and doesn't flare as he approaches the ground?

From what I've seen, I'd say almost always the prior (maybe a combo of the two). it depends on the definition of "incidents". If you initiate the turn at a proper height, but flare late, you might get beat up, but probably won't have enough force/direction to sever anything major internally. With a low turn, sometimes even throwing on the brakes early won't be enough to give you the flat angle and slower speed necessary to walk away.

[hallux 0]

people who seek to banning things as a reasonable response are usually dangerous narrow minded people who seek to control instead of being enlightened individuals who view the rights of others as sacred neccessities in order to have quality of life. Swooping is dangerous. everyone knows it. especially those that participate in it. they dont need you pushing to ban things.
If they are willing to accept the known risk then who are you to say differently?? how would you feel if someone said to ban all of skydiving because its dangerous? You would think that was outrageous and you would be angry that someone was trying to make that decision to influence your life and your passions.
What made you feel like you should speak up here? what was the motivation? Are you scared of death? Do you want attention? Do you feel like no one has the right to die in pursuit of ones passion? Only a childish confused fool demonizes a natural event such as death. Swooping didnt happen here...nature happened. To live and die in the moment is a measure of true enlightenment. Perhaps you should review your role in life and what is important to you and stop trying to inflict others with your egotistical opinion. We are creatures of nature and nature is of God. With our birth we have certain rights. One of which is the right to self enrichment and to make ouselves happy while not hurting others. Your self-enrichment obviously comes from tearing things apart, control, and destruction. There are others through history that thought like that....I dont think i need mention them.
however, I a slightly guilty of this too. For I wish i could ban ignorant knee-jerk reactions from people that have no modesty for their own role, nor respect for their fellow man and the path he wishes to follow.

Please take some time to think about your stupid post and reflect upon your own life and how you would like to be treated and respected as a being and a man that can make his OWN decisions for his OWN life. Then apply that to your attitude about others lives

[DocPop 1]

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I am curious though. Do the majority of swooping incidents happen because the initial spiral to speed up is too low, or is it that the person misjudges his recovery arc and doesn't flare as he approaches the ground?

I think the point should be made that if the diving turn (I hesitate to use the term "hook") is done correctly from the right height, the pilot should not have to flare to avoid impacting the ground at the end of the dive. The goal for a swoop is to use the natural recovery arc of the canopy to plane out with as little input as possible.

Therefore if a pilot has to "flare as he approaches the ground", he/she has already made their mistake.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[DSE 5]

from a philosophical view, I believe you're 100% correct, yet society often acts to protect individuals from themselves.
However, philosophy is a Bonfire discussion.

Banning swooping is a silly reaction, I agree.
Holding a swoop competition at 5000'MSL...maybe not so silly to consider the ramifications. If there have been four incidents in two days, and these incidents involve some of the best canopy pilots on the planet, then perhaps some considerations are in order.

[kj126 0]

“One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure its worth watching.”
People kill people, so lets ban people

I Am Sofa King We Todd Did!!

[SimonBones 1]

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Here's where to draw the line.

A swoop is a controlled maneuver.

A low pull isn't.

You cannot guarantee with any precision the altitude and time it will take for a canopy to open.

Tell that to BASE
You have much to learn young grasshopper

108 way head down world record!!!
http://www.simonbones.com
Hit me up on Facebook

[airtwardo 7]

Here's where to draw the line.

A swoop is a controlled maneuver.

A low pull isn't.

You cannot guarantee with any precision the altitude and time it will take for a canopy to open.

Swooping fits here too.

WANNA BET?!


No offence meant, but here is another example of speaking with authority on something you have little knowledge about.

Solid built 7 cell with a free-pack strap and a pullout pilot-chute approaching the size of what (gee) B.A.S.E. jumpers use...sit up and throw the same WAY every time, and you will be in the same PLACE every time it opens.

Low pullin'~ like swooping was intentional, technical and gear specific.

Just like swooping, not everyone did it... because even though it could be done 'right', it was a dangerous discipline that upon reflection wasn't worth the risk.

What John Rich is saying, 'possibly' at some point in time...when enough people are crippled or dead, the cause & effect relationship might spark some reconsideration.

Many of us old guys see swooping in the same light as hummin' it down, because it's can be planned and practiced...pulled off with seemingly safe regularity.

Until ya get dead.

'Eventually' you will get bit by the planet...the whole speed & mass thing.

Like low pulling, I doubt someone can swoop 20 years and move on to another discipline without any serious bends, brakes or dents.


Us old guys remember what happens to people 'playing the odds' with high speed dirt.

Gear and training etc. is safer now...how come so many people get dead with open parachutes over them?

Trust me, when the numbers climb high enough...something will change, and 20 years down the road ya might look at swooping and we now do Humming it.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Andy_Copland 0]

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If factors such as the altitude place competitors at an unusually high risk of injury or death, he may have to decide whether or not it is safe for the competition to continue.

Back in the beginning of the sport there used to be "low pull contests", whereby two people would play "chicken" with each other to see who would chicken-out first and deploy their parachutes before impacting the ground in freefall. Imagine if someone had suggested that USPA turn these contests into an official event at the National Parachuting Championships. Balderdash! Are you crazy! That little sport activity promoted extremely dangerous stunts, but fortunately, we came to our senses, grew out of it, and are now much safer for it.

And now today we have thousands of skydivers intentionally flinging themselves at the ground under canopy at low altitude and high speed, to see who can approach the fastest and pull out of their dives the lowest. It occurs to me that canopy swooping is just like low-pull contests. But while low-pull's were always an unofficial thing between individuals, swooping is actually approved and sanctioned as an official competition activity by USPA! But it's an activity that is creating untold danger and carnage in our sport.

Will we wise-up and eliminate this activity as "too dangerous", just as we did low-pull contests?

Poppycock, and i dont swoop. Lets just regulate the shit out of everything shall we?

Skydiving/Swooping/BASE its all a question of choice, we choose these things. Live and die by the consequences of our actions. Thats the way i like it.

Tightly controlled safety can suck my dick, in fact if i see one more fat old person skydiving i may just quit. I signed up for redbull and women, people with fucked up haircuts and even more fucked up atitudes. Skydivers should be cool and on the edge.

You're ruining our god damn image with safety so cut it out. Go back to low pull contests which you obviously lost as you're still alive and have none of the glory of the low pullers!

Right back to my beer. BSBD.

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[Halfpastniner 0]

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If factors such as the altitude place competitors at an unusually high risk of injury or death, he may have to decide whether or not it is safe for the competition to continue.

Back in the beginning of the sport there used to be "low pull contests", whereby two people would play "chicken" with each other to see who would chicken-out first and deploy their parachutes before impacting the ground in freefall. Imagine if someone had suggested that USPA turn these contests into an official event at the National Parachuting Championships. Balderdash! Are you crazy! That little sport activity promoted extremely dangerous stunts, but fortunately, we came to our senses, grew out of it, and are now much safer for it.

And now today we have thousands of skydivers intentionally flinging themselves at the ground under canopy at low altitude and high speed, to see who can approach the fastest and pull out of their dives the lowest. It occurs to me that canopy swooping is just like low-pull contests. But while low-pull's were always an unofficial thing between individuals, swooping is actually approved and sanctioned as an official competition activity by USPA! But it's an activity that is creating untold danger and carnage in our sport.

Will we wise-up and eliminate this activity as "too dangerous", just as we did low-pull contests?

Poppycock, and i dont swoop. Lets just regulate the shit out of everything shall we?

Skydiving/Swooping/BASE its all a question of choice, we choose these things. Live and die by the consequences of our actions. Thats the way i like it.

Tightly controlled safety can suck my dick, in fact if i see one more fat old person skydiving i may just quit. I signed up for redbull and women, people with fucked up haircuts and even more fucked up atitudes. Skydivers should be cool and on the edge.

You're ruining our god damn image with safety so cut it out. Go back to low pull contests which you obviously lost as you're still alive and have none of the glory of the low pullers!

Right back to my beer. BSBD.

That was a very good rant andy. Do you write for Dorkzonehero?

BASE 1384

[hallux 0]

loved it

[Halfpastniner 0]

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Here's where to draw the line.

A swoop is a controlled maneuver.

A low pull isn't.

You cannot guarantee with any precision the altitude and time it will take for a canopy to open.

Tell that to BASE
You have much to learn young grasshopper

+1

Personally, i would rather use specialized gear and go out and repeatedly pull at 600 feet, than use specialized gear to lay down monster swoops.

UNBAN LOW PULL CONTESTS!

BASE 1384

[SimonBones 1]

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Here's where to draw the line.

A swoop is a controlled maneuver.

A low pull isn't.

You cannot guarantee with any precision the altitude and time it will take for a canopy to open.

Tell that to BASE
You have much to learn young grasshopper

+1

Personally, i would rather use specialized gear and go out and repeatedly pull at 600 feet, than use specialized gear to lay down monster swoops.

UNBAN LOW PULL CONTESTS!

Attention on the internet, we have a high puller here. Move him to the back of the plane with the tandems and give him a cane and walker too.

I like my terminal jumps ending at just under 300ft. Wait for the last light to go past your legs and throw.
But seriously, 600 is pretty high. You could even do a few 360s from those altitudes.

108 way head down world record!!!
http://www.simonbones.com
Hit me up on Facebook

[captain1976 0]

Since most of the people in this thread have no more than a few years in this sport, I want to comment here;

Regarding the so-called "low pull contests" an "playing chicken" I read about here,These were old wives tales that would pop up every once and awhile in the old days.

I have been in this sport for quite a few years and these stories for the most part were just that, "stories".

Its quite possible that a few guys have done it at various locations way back when, but it was and would never have been tolerated at a typical DZ.

Swooping on the other hand has its risks and its all related to timing. Just like a motorcycle jumper or downhill skier, one slip and you're in trouble. Its just an acceptable risk some will take and everyone doing it knows the consequences.

You live more in the few minutes of skydiving than many people live in their lifetime

[Halfpastniner 0]

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Here's where to draw the line.

A swoop is a controlled maneuver.

A low pull isn't.

You cannot guarantee with any precision the altitude and time it will take for a canopy to open.

Tell that to BASE
You have much to learn young grasshopper

+1

Personally, i would rather use specialized gear and go out and repeatedly pull at 600 feet, than use specialized gear to lay down monster swoops.

UNBAN LOW PULL CONTESTS!

Attention on the internet, we have a high puller here. Move him to the back of the plane with the tandems and give him a cane and walker too.

I like my terminal jumps ending at just under 300ft. Wait for the last light to go past your legs and throw.
But seriously, 600 is pretty high. You could even do a few 360s from those altitudes.

No shit but on a skydive you dont have lights to look at! On our local tower I try to pull as i am passing the 400ft platform, usually puss out and pull a bit higher

BASE 1384

[Tolgak 0]

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Here's where to draw the line.

A swoop is a controlled maneuver.

A low pull isn't.

You cannot guarantee with any precision the altitude and time it will take for a canopy to open.

No offence meant, but here is another example of speaking with authority on something you have little knowledge about.

Solid built 7 cell with a free-pack strap and a pullout pilot-chute approaching the size of what (gee) B.A.S.E. jumpers use...sit up and throw the same WAY every time, and you will be in the same PLACE every time it opens.

[tetra316 0]

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Regarding the so-called "low pull contests" an "playing chicken" I read about here,These were old wives tales that would pop up every once and awhile in the old days.

I disagree. I've seen it more than once at different dzs in my few years in the sport. And it was always by the old geezers and usually ended up with a two out/cypress fire.

[raymod2 1]

I'd like to thank the jackass who started this ridiculous thread because I have truly enjoyed some of the responses. Especially you guys, hallux and Andy_Copland.

[JohnRich 4]

Note: My comment was a simple question, not a statement of my own personal philosophy. I made that comment to provoke thought and spur debate, and it has certainly done so.

The subject title is not mine - that was created by a moderator who broke this thread out from another one. I would have put a question mark at the end, at least.

The derogatory personal insults are unnecessary and unwarranted. Especially from the one member who went so far as to wish that I would shoot myself (whose message has now been removed, with no prompting from me). Sheesh.

You ought to be able to voice disagreement, without being a jerk about it. Let's try.

[rdufokker 6]

You make it sound so easy to not get killed, then why does it happen.

You also mistakenly think that airtwardo is talking about base when he talks of low pulls. Well he is talking about the 70's and 80's with stratostars and stratoclouds and merlins, etc. These canopies opened consistently the same and much quicker than canopies now. I was a high puller by some standards at 800'. In the saddle every time at 450' give or take 25'. I lived in spite of myself, and this only lasted 3 or 4 months, but funny thing is, I don't ever remember anyone dying from intentional low pulls. Swooping yes. I think the question should be more of, should the USPA sanction these events or should it be more of an X-Game venue. Why do you think USPA doesn't associate with BASE, aside from the fact most jumps are illegal. Could it be the high fatality rate?

Dont get me wrong, Luigi Cani was at our dz last summer and was utterly amazing to watch. Loved every minute (more like second) of his canopy piloting.

BS

Irony: "the History and Trivia section hijacked by the D.B. Cooper thread"

[captain1976 0]

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Regarding the so-called "low pull contests" an "playing chicken" I read about here,These were old wives tales that would pop up every once and awhile in the old days.

I disagree. I've seen it more than once at different dzs in my few years in the sport. And it was always by the old geezers and usually ended up with a two out/cypress fire.

Pulling at 2000 ft was the norm in the old days as I had to re-adjust to the higher altitudes we pull at today.

Some of the older guys still pull lower so I can see where with todays canopies you could on occasion get past the arming altitude of a cypress. If I pulled at 2K with my spectre I'm sure it would also get close since its a sniveler.

I was conveying that I learned many years ago most of the low pull contest stories were just fairy tales. And when a couple of geezers go low its simply a typical case of loosing track of time and altitude.

You live more in the few minutes of skydiving than many people live in their lifetime

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

1. Damn... a guy asks a question and the personal attacks come out quickly. It is interesting that SOME of those who defend their right to swoop, want to crush the right of the OP to ask a question about skydiving in the “General Skydiving” forum.

2. It is critical in this discussion to be clear that there is a huge difference between swooping in a time and place that does not endanger other jumpers; and swooping in a manner that makes murdering innocent jumpers a real possibility. We must apply whatever controls that we can to limit the potential for manslaughter of the non-swoopers. Many DZs are doing a good job of separating swoop and regular landings... I doubt that all are.

3. In the USA, our sport has a really weak ability to measure NON-FATAL INJURY. As a result, the REAL toll that swooping is taking on jumpers is difficult to reliably estimate. Fatal injuries get measured, but the serious injuries don't seem to get reported and counted as enthusiastically. Thus, no one really knows if this is a big problem or a small one, or if it is getting better or worse.

4. This is an important discussion. It is too bad that much of it has devolved into a name calling shouting match.

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[tetra316 0]

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Regarding the so-called "low pull contests" an "playing chicken" I read about here,These were old wives tales that would pop up every once and awhile in the old days.

I disagree. I've seen it more than once at different dzs in my few years in the sport. And it was always by the old geezers and usually ended up with a two out/cypress fire.

Pulling at 2000 ft was the norm in the old days as I had to re-adjust to the higher altitudes we pull at today.

Some of the older guys still pull lower so I can see where with todays canopies you could on occasion get past the arming altitude of a cypress. If I pulled at 2K with my spectre I'm sure it would also get close since its a sniveler.

I was conveying that I learned many years ago most of the low pull contest stories were just fairy tales. And when a couple of geezers go low its simply a typical case of loosing track of time and altitude.

And I'm saying the instances I witnessed were low pull contests. They didn't outright admit it but you definitely knew by the sheepish looks and subtle comments made when they returned with reserve in hand. I think the low pull contests were/are more common that you want to believe.

[freeflyn 0]

I hate to get involved in these pissing matches, but I do believe there is relevant information in the thread titled "Intro to Swooping - lesson 1" http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3652441;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread As indicated in one of the comments, this is the Russian championship.


My condolences to the family and friends of our fallen brother.

[danielcroft 2]

I'd just like to make the point that plenty of people have been killed and injured under open canopies who weren't swooping. Yes, the risk is higher but usually experience is too. I don't think it's accurate to suggest that there's a 1 to 1 correlation between people dying under perfectly good canopies and swooping.