kallend 2,026 #101 December 9, 2009 QuoteI have 6 or 7 night jumps in my book so far and I love jumping at night. I've done them with a full moon and no moon but the thing I've found is that you always plan the load. No zoo jumps. If the plan is 2 two-ways with points, then you don't ever change it to a 4 way on the way up. No moon and a strobe goes out, you plan for it. Maybe that is why the requirement still exits. It's an extraordinary jump that requires different planning. So you need a D to go PRO and the night jumps demonstrate your planning to the HQ gods? I'm just guessing but I do know they are a heck of alot of fun. Everything you wrote about planning could equally apply to competing at Nationals, a 100-way, or a 25 way wingsuit jump, but none of them are REQUIRED for a license.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #102 December 9, 2009 Quote>If a requirement can be waived, it really wasn't necessary in the first place for >the privileges granted by the license. Requirements are required (hence the name) for a given license. If they are waived, the jumper receives a restricted license that denotes his limitations. This is done for driver's licenses as well; drivers who need glasses to see are limited to driving with their glasses on, for example. It would be absurd to claim that therefore adequate vision isn't necessary to get a driver's license. What privilege is revoked with a restricted "D" license?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimmytavino 16 #103 December 9, 2009 Quote and NOW.. here is a full load, getting out,,,, and suddenly finding that it's no longer daytime out there.... FLAWED LOGIC again. The FLAW in that argument is that a "D" license is NOT required to manifest for a sunset load. of course a D isn't needed to manifest for the sunset load... and my point has NOTHING to do... with making night jumps , in order to qualify for a D Lic... hell i had made a dozen night jumps, fully 10 YEARS before sending in, for my D.... and never thought of them as any sort of requirment... when i got the Expert License,, i was pleased that i already had met that criteria,,,,, you wanna be an 'advanced' lic. holder??? get your C you wanna be an 'expert' license holder get your D ,,,, AND meet all the requirements... ... either way... it matters not to me... was simply pointing out the good common sense aspect, of 'familiarizing oneself with something new and unusual' .. BEFORE it's necessary, to safely complete a specific type ( well after sunset) of jump. it was as a reply to Daniels' question\ is THAT idea ,,,, not logical??? jmy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grimmie 186 #104 December 9, 2009 Thanks GLIDEANGLE. I'm trying to remember why I got my D way back when and I think it was to compete in the open class. Or maybe it was to get a PRO rating for some stadium jumps we did...geez a mind is a terrible thing to lose.Night jumps are a funny thing. People either love them or hate them it seems. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #105 December 9, 2009 QuoteQuote >>But if you want to formally hold yourself out as an >>"expert", you should demonstrate true expertise. . >wingsuit, skysurf No, because unless you're doing a dedicated wingsuit or skysurf jump, there's no possibility of needing the skill on any given skydive. . So now you're changing your tune from demonstrating true expertise to needing a skill. How exactly does that reasoning NOT apply to night jumps? If you're not jumping at night or jumping during a total eclipse (both of which are predictable events), there's no possibility of needing the skill on any given skydive. I still disagree, as do I disagree with your feeling that the night requirement for a D license was mainly a "macho" thing (although that's really beside the point; the requirement is either reasonable today, or it's not). I agree with Jimmy Tavino's (and other similar) reasoning (incorporated and reasserted herein by reference). It can happen on a late-in-the-day load. Enough so that I wouldn't object to night jump training being required for a C license. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #106 December 9, 2009 Quote Thanks GLIDEANGLE. I'm trying to remember why I got my D way back when and I think it was to compete in the open class. Or maybe it was to get a PRO rating for some stadium jumps we did...geez a mind is a terrible thing to lose.Night jumps are a funny thing. People either love them or hate them it seems. Rich, Back a 100 years or so, when I was an S&TA at Perris a D lic. was required to compete with the big boys at the nationals. There are a whole bunch of D's out there that were gotten just for that reason. Then the whinning stated and it was changed back. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,990 #107 December 9, 2009 >What privilege is revoked with a restricted "D" license? Whatever skill is not demonstrated. For example, if you feel you cannot jump at night, you can get a restricted D license that indicates "no night jumps demonstrated." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #108 December 9, 2009 Quote Quote and NOW.. here is a full load, getting out,,,, and suddenly finding that it's no longer daytime out there.... FLAWED LOGIC again. The FLAW in that argument is that a "D" license is NOT required to manifest for a sunset load. of course a D isn't needed to manifest for the sunset load... and my point has NOTHING to do... with making night jumps , in order to qualify for a D Lic... hell i had made a dozen night jumps, fully 10 YEARS before sending in, for my D.... and never thought of them as any sort of requirment... when i got the Expert License,, i was pleased that i already had met that criteria,,,,, you wanna be an 'advanced' lic. holder??? get your C you wanna be an 'expert' license holder get your D ,,,, AND meet all the requirements... ... either way... it matters not to me... I already did, thanks. Just because something was done a certain way 40 years ago doesn't mean it's appropriate today. Do you still have a rotary dial telephone? A 13 channel TV in your living room? Quote was simply pointing out the good common sense aspect, of 'familiarizing oneself with something new and unusual' .. BEFORE it's necessary, to safely complete a specific type ( well after sunset) of jump. it was as a reply to Daniels' question\ is THAT idea ,,,, not logical??? jmy Doing it optionally is fine and maybe a good idea if you plan to make lots of sunset loads at DZs which can't keep track of time. That is not the issue under discussion, though.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #109 December 9, 2009 Quote>What privilege is revoked with a restricted "D" license? Whatever skill is not demonstrated. For example, if you feel you cannot jump at night, you can get a restricted D license that indicates "no night jumps demonstrated." That doesn't revoke any privileges, does it? It's a statement of fact, not a restriction. My Mooney has a "maximum demonstrated crosswind component" of 13kt. Doesn't mean it can't be landed in a 15kt crosswind.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #110 December 10, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuote >>But if you want to formally hold yourself out as an >>"expert", you should demonstrate true expertise. . >wingsuit, skysurf No, because unless you're doing a dedicated wingsuit or skysurf jump, there's no possibility of needing the skill on any given skydive. . So now you're changing your tune from demonstrating true expertise to needing a skill. How exactly does that reasoning NOT apply to night jumps? If you're not jumping at night or jumping during a total eclipse (both of which are predictable events), there's no possibility of needing the skill on any given skydive. I still disagree, as do I disagree with your feeling that the night requirement for a D license was mainly a "macho" thing (although that's really beside the point; the requirement is either reasonable today, or it's not). I agree with Jimmy Tavino's (and other similar) reasoning (incorporated and reasserted herein by reference). It can happen on a late-in-the-day load. Enough so that I wouldn't object to night jump training being required for a C license. That was a pretty miserable rebuttal, counselor. You're still changing tunes. BTW, a cleared to solo pre - "A" student can manifest for a sunset load. Following your logic, night jumps should be required as part of AFF.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 5 #111 December 10, 2009 re; night jumps... Sunset load, has a go around. Sky is well lit, but below the mountain line, it's very dim. Clouds come in over mountain ridge, it's damn near dark. Those that don't jump near big mountain ranges probably can't comprehend this, but it is a somewhat common occurance at my home DZ. FWIW for the accuracy...when you fly a wingsuit, you WILL have an off landing at some point. If you don't, you're not doing it right. I've put down in small clearances in the middle of very tall trees at Eden North (2 miles from DZ), and put down in backyards at several foreign DZs. My first cutaway experience required a very tight landing with powerlines, boulder wall, house, and very tall trees surrounding landing area. IMO, night jumps are very valuable, as is accuracy ability. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #112 December 10, 2009 Quotere; night jumps... Sunset load, has a go around. Sky is well lit, but below the mountain line, it's very dim. Clouds come in over mountain ridge, it's damn near dark. Those that don't jump near big mountain ranges probably can't comprehend this, but it is a somewhat common occurance at my home DZ. IMO, night jumps are very valuable, as is accuracy ability. Does this mean a "D" license or logged and signed-off night jumps should be required for sunset loads?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #113 December 10, 2009 John, behave yourself. Sparky My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #114 December 10, 2009 QuoteFollowing your logic, night jumps should be required as part of AFF. Cool! We'll call it "NAFF"! I like it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
danielcroft 2 #115 December 10, 2009 QuotePersons holding a USPA D license are able to exercise all privileges of a C-license holder, are eligible for all USPA ratings, and must have- a. met all current requirements for or hold a USPA C license b. completed 500 jumps including accumulating at least three hours of controlled freefall time c. made two night jumps (one solo and one in a group) with a freefall of at least 20 seconds (1) with verification of prior night-jump training from a USPA Instructor holding a USPA D license (2) with the advice of an S&TA, in accordance with USPA BSRs d. Passed the written USPA D license exam conducted by a current USPA I/E, S&TA, or USPA Board member. What else is there? Maybe the point of having night jumps is to make the D license something that is not just an expression of the number of jumps you have. Maybe noone had any better ideas to make it actually special & hard to get? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 5 #116 December 10, 2009 Quote Does this mean a "D" license or logged and signed-off night jumps should be required for sunset loads? Nope, but it does mean that it's silly to think that one won't ever be jumping in very dim/near dark conditions. A "D" license is a choice. If you want a D license, step up and earn it. If you don't, be satisfied with what you've chosen to achieve. If you don't want a PRO rating or tandem rating, a D isn't necessary. Some folks go "above and beyond" while others are happy with the minimums. Fortunately, most skydiving endeavors accomodate both ends of the spectrum. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sparkie 0 #117 December 10, 2009 old news man. I've hacked my logbook a long time ago. I now get double EXP! for every jump i make. I also have all the canopies unlocked. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #118 December 10, 2009 Quote old news man. I've hacked my logbook a long time ago. I now get double EXP! for every jump i make. I also have all the canopies unlocked. English translation, please? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reginald 0 #119 December 10, 2009 Quote Quote old news man. I've hacked my logbook a long time ago. I now get double EXP! for every jump i make. I also have all the canopies unlocked. English translation, please? LOL. It's a gamer thing. Funny stuff. "We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Waste 0 #120 December 10, 2009 I'm nerd enough to get the joke It's a reference to a video game, most likely call of duty where if you play on a modded server you can receive 2x the experience points per kill, and all of the new guns and perks can be "unlocked" and made available to you... EDIT: Regi beat me to it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #121 December 10, 2009 Quote Nope, but it does mean that it's silly to think that one won't ever be jumping in very dim/near dark conditions. A "D" license is a choice. If you want a D license, step up and earn it. If you don't, be satisfied with what you've chosen to achieve. If you don't want a PRO rating or tandem rating, a D isn't necessary. Some folks go "above and beyond" while others are happy with the minimums. Fortunately, most skydiving endeavors accomodate both ends of the spectrum. Since night tandems are not allowed it still makes no sense. Accuracy requirements make sense for tandem, PROs and wingsuiters and probably should be tightened, but night jumps, not so much. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #122 December 10, 2009 QuoteSince night tandems are not allowed it still makes no sense. Where does it say no night tandems? http://www.strongparachutes.com/events/mosttandems.php SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fasted3 0 #123 December 10, 2009 QuoteWhat privilege is revoked with a restricted "D" license? How about the privilege of jumping at night? Having a D implies that a person has made at least 2 night jumps, and is therefore qualified to join in a more difficult night jump than would someone making their first one. I agree with you that night jumping is a skill that can be avoided, and still be a well qualified skydiver, but let's put the shoe on the other foot - What's so hard about doing a couple of night jumps? Why not just do em'?But what do I know? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #124 December 10, 2009 QuoteQuote Does this mean a "D" license or logged and signed-off night jumps should be required for sunset loads? Nope, but it does mean that it's silly to think that one won't ever be jumping in very dim/near dark conditions. You do realize the complete lack of logic in your position, right? Quote A "D" license is a choice. If you want a D license, step up and earn it. If you don't, be satisfied with what you've chosen to achieve. I did, and before you did, it seems. Quote If you don't want a PRO rating or tandem rating, a D isn't necessary. Some folks go "above and beyond" while others are happy with the minimums. Fortunately, most skydiving endeavors accomodate both ends of the spectrum. Explain how 2 (just 2, with no defined criterion for success) night jumps are so desperately REQUIRED but CRW, bigway experience, advanced canopy flight, sit, head down, etc., are not.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #125 December 10, 2009 QuoteQuoteWhat privilege is revoked with a restricted "D" license? How about the privilege of jumping at night? Don't need a "D" for that. Read the SIM Section 3-1 E B(2)... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
